You should be able to get a color card, and gray card, from any decent photo supply store.

Is that dirt in the crevices? Or cemented material? Definitely looks like a horse tooth.

C.C. Hatchett :wink:

[quote:="paleoface"]...a major American State archaeological and comparative osteology laboratory had identified several teeth which I have retrieved here locally as probable pleistocene horse. This after weeks of physically comparing the teeth (I insured them and mailed them away) with their collection of pleistocene remains. Now the stinker: a major Canadian provincial Museum ( paleobiology department) head feels that the teeth are "sub-recent"- this based on the color of the teeth as viewed via jpeg email attachments........Can anyone here offer some opines and comment on the teeth. Note: the Canadian Museum officials have not physically handled the teeth- in fact they have not even asked to physically study the teeth though I have offered them the opportunity.



I would place greater confidence in the opinion of the osteology lab that physically examined the teeth and compared them to known Pleistocene specimens.

Hi Jay...

The teeth are almost certainly not bison. A bison molar is usually readily identified by the "isolated stylid", which I think we discussed earlier.

It might be possible to date a tooth by AMS radiocarbon or by electron spin resonance, but unfortunately both these processes are destructive. (Some headway is being made in nondestructive ESR dating, but last I was told - about a week ago - this is still a work in progress.)

Your photos are very good, actually, except for one blurry one, but I might suggest cropping to show just the object in question plus a scale or parts of fingers to show size. And yes, getting colors right can be tricky. For white, I have found that I can often get this closer just by reducing the color saturation in the photo.

Very interesting in any event...

AD

Is that dirt in the crevices? Or cemented material?
Well I worked with human teeth for years and to my eyes it sure looks like calculus. It is definitely not dirt............
have any forum members found pleistocene teeth? what color are the teeth? The canadian museum official stated that usually non-modern teeth are uniform in color and that bi-coloring (often white for enamel and dark yellow/brown for softer areas of the teeth) is a clear indicator for "sub-historical" or "colonial to modern" era teeth. It is also interesting to note that they confirmed that pleistocene horse remains have not been conclusively found anywhere in the province of Ontario, though I don't have access to online journals to confirm this............
anyone here have access to JSOTR or other???
thx
paleoface

I've been on digs in Kansas and Nebraska where the pleistocene surface is still just that, on the surface... ground was littered with Pleistocene horse, camel, deer, sabre tooth cat, mammoth and bison teeth and bones - don't have comparative pics in front of me. Could you take a pic of the other side of the first tooth? The size of it makes me think deer.

The last one could be horse or camel... very similar. The pleistocene material we found there was a bit more brown and weathered. The enamel was often friable as well and flaking off. But sometimes not. Teeth as you know hold up extremely well and all of the ones we found were just from surface collection. Were these surface finds? Is there a cutbank they may have eroded from near by?

Were these surface finds? Is there a cutbank they may have eroded from near by?
Here's the rub- they were retrieved from different sites, in one case there is a cutbank near by. What is interesting though is that the other sites do not appear to share geological and/or geographical characteristics. For example, the "long" tooth (Charlie asked if "dirt" was trapped on the lingual surface) was retrieved on the surface of the beach approximately 30' feet from the waterline. There are no cut banks near this site- but who knows what the geography may have been like in the past. Again, in another case, one tooth was retrieved from the bottom of a fresh water stream which "bends" then terminates and dumps directly into Lake Erie. Near this entry point, the stream has cut into the sand (perhaps a better image is a channel of water which cuts through the beach so that sand lies on either side) and exposed an underlying gravel bed which normally would have been covered by sand. Interestingly, maybe the surrounding beach also has an underlying bed of gravel buried beneath it? The exposed gravel bed lies in approximately 18" -24" of clear, cold, stream water. And again in another separate instance, another tooth was retrieved from the Erie beach where no cut banks are present, but there is a large swamp to the North of the retrieval location. I don't believe that either the comparative Lab or the Canadian museum officials were aware of this information, although I did send a photo of the retrieval site of one of the teeth (this site did have a cut bank close to the retrieval site )Anyway, I will update this post with pictures of the sites sometime today or tomorrow and add photos of the teeth from other angles.

Site 1- beach, nr freshwater stream outlet into Lake Erie- marsh on one side of retrieval site, lake on other side. No farmland within km's of site. No eroding bank but some areas have steep sand bank which leads to the marsh.
Note: the stones are much larger than the other retrieval sites.
image 1, long road leading to site, image 2 and 3 geography on either side of road (same as retrieval site, lake water and marshland)


south side
north side
retrieval site was amongst these stones
close up of site
interesting stump nr retrieval site






another view of site showing waves cutting into sandy terrace

I was shocked to discover today that this site has been destroyed. It has been backfilled, the banks have been cut and what was once a cool, clear stream running into the lake is now a silt filled mess. Even the area around the heritage sign further up stream has been extensively landscaped.
I found two teeth here on two separate occasions. At that time, the stream bubbled quietly and bent under a walkway bridge then calmly emptied into the Lake. At that point (no longer exists) one could see a large mass of pebbles and cobbles similar to site1 images but these were smaller.

Again, the classic stream/creek runs into the Lake. Obviously the level fluctuates and after a good thaw or rainstorm the creek cuts right through the sand on the beach until the water can spill into the lake. Very dynamic. This was where I found the tooth.
No farms within km's, water on south side of site, modest steep bank on north side.

hard to tell from image, but this is the bank on the north side of the site
and another view showing the boundary of the creek and the lake- this doesnot exist when the water flow from the creek is increased due to thaw etc.

Again, looking ahead to the "indentation" on the beach, this is where the water flows into the lake and cuts into the sand when the creek ahead is at a high flow and level.
Today I retrieved an unknown bone- please suggest opines on type etc.

this is on the north side of the site, no farms within km's
today the water level is low and the creek is quiet


mini lighter for scale not full size lighter
this is how the creek/stream at site2 used to look, very similar to here at site 4, refer back to site2 updated pics for contrast

That bone in the pics right above is likely from a cut of meat from the local butcher that someone made lunch of not too long ago... bbq on the beach. I'd bet money on that. Would find cut bone like that all up and down lake erie when I was living on it. All the other teeth and such could have washed out from anywhere and been washed downstream, ending up in dunes or gravel patches based on those photos. Good thing to do might is to see if any of the strats in the cutbanks you photo'd have been identified and dated.

Yeah, this cutbank/ dissected colluvium looks like it may have secure strata:




Any chance of a close-up, J?

Any chance of a close-up, J?
sure, it'll be a day or two, lets hope the weather holds up until then
cheers

The Royal Ontario Museum has opined that the pleistocene teeth and one of the lithic artifacts resembling an European handaxe- could have been deposited on the shores of lake erie from the emptying of bilges via european freighters travelling Lake Erie (and the other Great Lakes) Your thoughts on this theory? One staff member suggesting that this indeed happens and handaxes wash up onto the shoreline after making their way from the lake once the freighter bilges are emptied. I have not found anything in the published literature to back this up. Has anyone heard of this happening?

paleoface

Hi Paleoface...

So, are the Ontario museum folks now thinking the teeth are of Pleistocene age? You said earlier that they were calling them "sub-recent", while an American osteology lab said they were likely Pleistocene horse.

Regarding artifacts transported via bilge dumping, I have heard of this happening. Specifically, I've been told that European Paleolithic material has been deposited on the Australian shoreline in this manner.

If you know someone competent in the lithology of your area, you might look into whether the composition of your hand-axe-like find is characteristic of this or of something else. One way or another, the notion that simple hand axes were never produced in North America is an article of faith, and little more than that.

AD

Good questions. I don't know if they are calling them pleistocene now or not but that seems like a possibility. I need to be very cautious about how I phrase my position, remember anyone can google pleistocene, remains, ontario and read these forum posts!
Okay now that is out of the way- The folks at the ROM are simply stating that after the teeth are dated, should they turn out to be precontact in age then their position is: they arent necessarily from Ontario, they could be from Europe having been dumped from a freighters bilge and ending up on the beach/shoreline. Of course this doesnt explain my inland find of a tooth (which was in indirect association with a lithichwhich seems to be in the style of a European Handaxe- though my find is quite a bit smaller than a typical Aurig. style.
I think the bottom line to all of this is: It will take some kind of miracle to convince the scientific status quo community that any/all pleistocene faunal and lithic remains indicating indigineous ice age horse/people here in Southern Ontario are valid. That is a shame and I am afraid it reeks of dogma. Still, you never know, its a long field season and a partial or full skeleton could always turn up. Of course one could argue that should these remains be found, they could have been dropped from the cargo hold of an airplane.
paleo