Topic ID #3588 - posted 6/9/2008 7:15 AM
Circumambulate
SPAIN TAKES US COMPANY TO COURT
Circumambulate
Duplicate posting
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/06/08/spain.treasure/index.html
Spain's lost treasure battle in U.S. court
By Al Goodman
CNN Madrid Bureau Chief
MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- A battle royale over an estimated $500 million treasure that a Florida deep-sea salvage company found last year is due for a fresh round in court in Florida on Monday.
Security forces cordon off the Ocean Alert, an Odyssey Marine Exploration ship, in July 2007.
The Spanish government now says the 500,000 silver and gold coins that the company, Odyssey Marine Exploration, found last year in the Atlantic Ocean near Spain came from one of its ships that sunk in a 19th-century naval battle. Spain wants the entire treasure returned, but Odyssey insists Spain may have no right to it.
Lawyers for both sides are due to present arguments Monday morning in a U.S. federal court in Tampa, Florida, in another round of the case that started last year, Odyssey spokeswoman Natja Igney told CNN.
Odyssey found the coins last year and quietly airlifted them in crates from Gibraltar, a British colony on Spain's southern tip, to Florida for safekeeping. The company then said it was unclear how the huge quantity of coins it found on the seabed had gotten there. It declined to reveal the location, citing security reasons, and mysteriously dubbed the site "Black Swan."
But the Spanish government, at a recent Madrid news conference, said it's really not so complicated.
"The mystery is over," said James Goold, a U.S. lawyer representing Spain, told the news conference. "Using a variety of methods to conceal what it was doing, Odyssey Marine Exploration stripped the gravesite that is the Spanish navy warship Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes of coins and other objects."
"The coins and other artifacts that Odyssey took from the site are documented to have been on the Mercedes," Goold said.
The Mercedes was a 34-gun frigate, a ship very common at the time in the Spanish navy. The Mercedes left Peru, stopped in Uruguay and was just a day's sail from Spain when the four-ship Spanish squadron was attacked by a British fleet in October 1804, according to a Spanish government's filing to the Florida court.
In the ensuing Battle of Cape St. Mary, south of Portugal, the Mercedes exploded after being hit in its powder magazine. It sank with its cargo, killing the 200 Spanish sailors and civilians aboard.
Spain accuses Odyssey of looting the gravesite of a sovereign Spanish-flagged navy vessel. But Odyssey executives aren't so sure the coins came from the Mercedes, and they say they certainly didn't come from a gravesite.
"I think in order to have a gravesite, you certainly need the remains of a shipwreck, and you would certainly need the remains of some humans. Neither has been found at the site," Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm told CNN. He invited Spanish experts to join Odyssey in further investigation. Watch Stemm describe the gold that was found »
But Spain says it has already seen the evidence. It recently dispatched a team, including a government marine archaeologist and coin expert, to Florida to examine the treasure held by Odyssey.
These specialists told the Madrid news conference that it's a vast trove of coins, including fabled "pieces of eight," some minted in 1803 in Lima, Peru -- then a Spanish colony.
Stemm told CNN most of the 500,000 coins are silver; with a smaller amount being gold. The visiting Spanish experts, he said, saw only a small percentage of the coins, and he called for more research.
"We are not after the gold," Guillermo Corral Van Damme, a Ministry of Culture senior official told CNN. "We are after the history, of the memory, of the respect, essentially, for what is a marine graveyard of our people."
But Stemm countered, "Well, if they're really not in it for the money, then we would be happy just to keep all the coins and do the archaeological work at no charge, if it turns out there's a Spanish interest."
The Peruvian government also is monitoring this case, a Peruvian diplomat told CNN. Media reports have quoted some authorities there as saying Peru might also have a claim, if it's proven that some of the treasure came from Peru.
Spain might be willing to share some of the treasure with Peru, but out of a sense of a common cultural heritage, rather than a strictly monetary operation, Jose Jimenez, another Spanish Ministry of Culture senior official, told the Madrid news conference.
Odyssey says its leading hypothesis is that the coins may have come from the Mercedes, pending further research, Odyssey lawyer Melinda MacConnel told CNN. But MacConnel said even if it's proven that the treasure was aboard the Mercedes, Spain still doesn't have an automatic claim because the ship, at the time, did not meet the legal standard for "a sovereign immune vessel."
"This ship was not on a military mission at the time of its sinking. It was transporting mostly private goods, actually," MacConnel said.
But Goold, the Washington-based lawyer for Spain, told CNN, "This case has a lot more visibility because of the artificial mystery that was created, and because of the large amount of gold and silver that was taken from the ship. But the legal principles are not new."
"I've been to court before on them and we have always won and we expect the same result here," Goold said. "A navy ship is a navy ship. This is property of the national government, subject to exclusive control of the national government."
The court hearing on Monday in Tampa is not expected to be the last round in this battle over the treasure.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/06/08/spain.treasure/index.html
Spain's lost treasure battle in U.S. court
By Al Goodman
CNN Madrid Bureau Chief
MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- A battle royale over an estimated $500 million treasure that a Florida deep-sea salvage company found last year is due for a fresh round in court in Florida on Monday.
Security forces cordon off the Ocean Alert, an Odyssey Marine Exploration ship, in July 2007.
The Spanish government now says the 500,000 silver and gold coins that the company, Odyssey Marine Exploration, found last year in the Atlantic Ocean near Spain came from one of its ships that sunk in a 19th-century naval battle. Spain wants the entire treasure returned, but Odyssey insists Spain may have no right to it.
Lawyers for both sides are due to present arguments Monday morning in a U.S. federal court in Tampa, Florida, in another round of the case that started last year, Odyssey spokeswoman Natja Igney told CNN.
Odyssey found the coins last year and quietly airlifted them in crates from Gibraltar, a British colony on Spain's southern tip, to Florida for safekeeping. The company then said it was unclear how the huge quantity of coins it found on the seabed had gotten there. It declined to reveal the location, citing security reasons, and mysteriously dubbed the site "Black Swan."
But the Spanish government, at a recent Madrid news conference, said it's really not so complicated.
"The mystery is over," said James Goold, a U.S. lawyer representing Spain, told the news conference. "Using a variety of methods to conceal what it was doing, Odyssey Marine Exploration stripped the gravesite that is the Spanish navy warship Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes of coins and other objects."
"The coins and other artifacts that Odyssey took from the site are documented to have been on the Mercedes," Goold said.
The Mercedes was a 34-gun frigate, a ship very common at the time in the Spanish navy. The Mercedes left Peru, stopped in Uruguay and was just a day's sail from Spain when the four-ship Spanish squadron was attacked by a British fleet in October 1804, according to a Spanish government's filing to the Florida court.
In the ensuing Battle of Cape St. Mary, south of Portugal, the Mercedes exploded after being hit in its powder magazine. It sank with its cargo, killing the 200 Spanish sailors and civilians aboard.
Spain accuses Odyssey of looting the gravesite of a sovereign Spanish-flagged navy vessel. But Odyssey executives aren't so sure the coins came from the Mercedes, and they say they certainly didn't come from a gravesite.
"I think in order to have a gravesite, you certainly need the remains of a shipwreck, and you would certainly need the remains of some humans. Neither has been found at the site," Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm told CNN. He invited Spanish experts to join Odyssey in further investigation. Watch Stemm describe the gold that was found »
But Spain says it has already seen the evidence. It recently dispatched a team, including a government marine archaeologist and coin expert, to Florida to examine the treasure held by Odyssey.
These specialists told the Madrid news conference that it's a vast trove of coins, including fabled "pieces of eight," some minted in 1803 in Lima, Peru -- then a Spanish colony.
Stemm told CNN most of the 500,000 coins are silver; with a smaller amount being gold. The visiting Spanish experts, he said, saw only a small percentage of the coins, and he called for more research.
"We are not after the gold," Guillermo Corral Van Damme, a Ministry of Culture senior official told CNN. "We are after the history, of the memory, of the respect, essentially, for what is a marine graveyard of our people."
But Stemm countered, "Well, if they're really not in it for the money, then we would be happy just to keep all the coins and do the archaeological work at no charge, if it turns out there's a Spanish interest."
The Peruvian government also is monitoring this case, a Peruvian diplomat told CNN. Media reports have quoted some authorities there as saying Peru might also have a claim, if it's proven that some of the treasure came from Peru.
Spain might be willing to share some of the treasure with Peru, but out of a sense of a common cultural heritage, rather than a strictly monetary operation, Jose Jimenez, another Spanish Ministry of Culture senior official, told the Madrid news conference.
Odyssey says its leading hypothesis is that the coins may have come from the Mercedes, pending further research, Odyssey lawyer Melinda MacConnel told CNN. But MacConnel said even if it's proven that the treasure was aboard the Mercedes, Spain still doesn't have an automatic claim because the ship, at the time, did not meet the legal standard for "a sovereign immune vessel."
"This ship was not on a military mission at the time of its sinking. It was transporting mostly private goods, actually," MacConnel said.
But Goold, the Washington-based lawyer for Spain, told CNN, "This case has a lot more visibility because of the artificial mystery that was created, and because of the large amount of gold and silver that was taken from the ship. But the legal principles are not new."
"I've been to court before on them and we have always won and we expect the same result here," Goold said. "A navy ship is a navy ship. This is property of the national government, subject to exclusive control of the national government."
The court hearing on Monday in Tampa is not expected to be the last round in this battle over the treasure.
Post ID#16366 - replied 12/3/2009 12:52 AM
bobbo79
Does anyone know what happened with that story in the end?
It's an interesting one, it sounds like Spain's lawyer is saying that any gold that was originally on a Navy ship belongs to that country in perpetuity.
I suppose though that since Odyssey removed all the coins they could well do the classic police evidence trick and tell everyone they only found 100,000 coins...
It's an interesting one, it sounds like Spain's lawyer is saying that any gold that was originally on a Navy ship belongs to that country in perpetuity.
I suppose though that since Odyssey removed all the coins they could well do the classic police evidence trick and tell everyone they only found 100,000 coins...
Post ID#16382 - replied 12/3/2009 4:51 PM
FireArch
Moderator
I would say the gold belongs to the country it was extracted from, for we all know how it was taken.
Post ID#16385 - replied 12/4/2009 5:54 AM
bobbo79
Interesting idea, that's true that when Spain claims it as their gold it was taken with mass-murdering and general raping and pillaging, so the original populations they took it from having a claim? That's an interesting idea. I like it more than giving it back to Spain at any rate.
Post ID#16709 - replied 1/2/2010 10:18 AM
Helena
Spain wasn't the only one country which did that kind of crimes in the past, and in the present, i think (sorry i'm from Spain and sometimes it sounds like only our country had bad behaviours in the past and that hurts a little cause we know it doesn't true) And i think it isn't a subject to be discussed here.
I'm glad with the gold come back, not for the gold but for the fact that many sites in our country have been plundered for decades (by people from here and from abroad) and people have to know that can be judged for that.
I'm glad with the gold come back, not for the gold but for the fact that many sites in our country have been plundered for decades (by people from here and from abroad) and people have to know that can be judged for that.
Post ID#16710 - replied 1/2/2010 11:01 AM
Circumambulate
The issue has yet to be resolved as international cases take quite a bit of time and there have since been other parties who lay claim to the bounty. The most recent news item regarding the case:
http://en.mercopress.com/2009/12/28/peru-and-bolivia-also-want-their-share-of-the-gold-found-in-spanish-galleon
Monday, December 28th 2009 - 11:49 pm UTC
Peru and Bolivia also want their share of the gold found in Spanish galleon
The government of Peru announced it will join the dispute between US treasure-hunting company Odyssey Marine Exploration and Spanish authorities. The dispute involves 500 million US dollars in gold and silver coins rescued from a Spanish galleon off the coast of Portugal. Bolivia has also approached the Spanish government on the issue.
Foreign Affairs minister Jose Antonio García Belaunde said Peru it will appeal against the ruling of the federal court in Tampa (Florida) which requires the US company to return to Madrid the gold and silver coins arguing they were processed and minted in Peru during colonial times, according to Andina news agency.
Odyssey President Gregg Stemm and Vice President and General Counsel of the company, Melinda MacConnel, anticipated in a statement Odyssey will also present "appeals" to resolve the dispute before it faces the Spanish Government.
Last Tuesday December 22nd the US District Judge filed an order backing a magistrate court’s June decision that the salvage reportedly should be returned to Spain. The decision was brought as a result of Spain’s suit seeking the treasure believing it to be recovered from the Spanish warship “Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes”.
Odyssey Marine Exploration recovered the coins from the ocean floor nearly 100 miles west of the Strait of Gibraltar in international waters and disputes Spain’s claim, going so far as to recognize the possibility that it did not come from the “Mercedes”. They have code-named the project "Black Swan" and have been holding the 17-ton recovery pending the outcome of the litigation.
According to Spain, the “Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes” was sunk by British gunboats in 1804 as it was returning from Peru loaded with treasure. Judge Steven Merryday in his order said that “the ineffable truth of this case is that the Mercedes is a naval vessel of Spain and that the wreck of this naval vessel, the vessel’s cargo, and any human remains are the natural and legal patrimony of Spain," stated Judge Steven Merryday in his order.
Odyssey for its part released a statement regarding the decision which said in part: "Judge Merryday’s ruling serves to move this case to the appellate court faster, where we feel confident that the legal issues are clearly in our favour. We will file our notice of appeal with the Federal District Court for the Middle District of Florida and Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals within the required time and look forward to presenting our case in that forum”.
Meantime the Bolivian government approached Spain suggesting sharing the recovered treasure since it presumes the coins were minted at the Casa de la Moneda Potosi.
“Bolivia has informed both Odyssey and the Spanish government that we would like a numismatic expert to identify the origin of the recovered treasure and that it should be shared with institutions such as the Casa de la Moneda de Potosí”, said Bolivian Minister of Culture Pablo Groux.
“Once we have the numismatic expert’s opinion we will have a sufficient degree of certainty and legitimacy for the Bolivian state to make a proposal to Spain, which we hope will be received accordingly”, added Groux.
During Spanish colonial times Potosí was under the jurisdiction of the viceroyship in Lima, Peru. Potosí was also famous for its precious metals particularly a hill with an extraordinarily high content of silver.
Groux said it will wait for the rulings on the appeals (from Odyssey and Peru) to try and establish “some kind of formal agreement with Spain”, avoiding the courts.
“We have no interest in litigating with Spain, which could very well consider the discovery a shared cultural patrimony”, suggested the Bolivian official.
http://en.mercopress.com/2009/12/28/peru-and-bolivia-also-want-their-share-of-the-gold-found-in-spanish-galleon
Monday, December 28th 2009 - 11:49 pm UTC
Peru and Bolivia also want their share of the gold found in Spanish galleon
The government of Peru announced it will join the dispute between US treasure-hunting company Odyssey Marine Exploration and Spanish authorities. The dispute involves 500 million US dollars in gold and silver coins rescued from a Spanish galleon off the coast of Portugal. Bolivia has also approached the Spanish government on the issue.
Foreign Affairs minister Jose Antonio García Belaunde said Peru it will appeal against the ruling of the federal court in Tampa (Florida) which requires the US company to return to Madrid the gold and silver coins arguing they were processed and minted in Peru during colonial times, according to Andina news agency.
Odyssey President Gregg Stemm and Vice President and General Counsel of the company, Melinda MacConnel, anticipated in a statement Odyssey will also present "appeals" to resolve the dispute before it faces the Spanish Government.
Last Tuesday December 22nd the US District Judge filed an order backing a magistrate court’s June decision that the salvage reportedly should be returned to Spain. The decision was brought as a result of Spain’s suit seeking the treasure believing it to be recovered from the Spanish warship “Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes”.
Odyssey Marine Exploration recovered the coins from the ocean floor nearly 100 miles west of the Strait of Gibraltar in international waters and disputes Spain’s claim, going so far as to recognize the possibility that it did not come from the “Mercedes”. They have code-named the project "Black Swan" and have been holding the 17-ton recovery pending the outcome of the litigation.
According to Spain, the “Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes” was sunk by British gunboats in 1804 as it was returning from Peru loaded with treasure. Judge Steven Merryday in his order said that “the ineffable truth of this case is that the Mercedes is a naval vessel of Spain and that the wreck of this naval vessel, the vessel’s cargo, and any human remains are the natural and legal patrimony of Spain," stated Judge Steven Merryday in his order.
Odyssey for its part released a statement regarding the decision which said in part: "Judge Merryday’s ruling serves to move this case to the appellate court faster, where we feel confident that the legal issues are clearly in our favour. We will file our notice of appeal with the Federal District Court for the Middle District of Florida and Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals within the required time and look forward to presenting our case in that forum”.
Meantime the Bolivian government approached Spain suggesting sharing the recovered treasure since it presumes the coins were minted at the Casa de la Moneda Potosi.
“Bolivia has informed both Odyssey and the Spanish government that we would like a numismatic expert to identify the origin of the recovered treasure and that it should be shared with institutions such as the Casa de la Moneda de Potosí”, said Bolivian Minister of Culture Pablo Groux.
“Once we have the numismatic expert’s opinion we will have a sufficient degree of certainty and legitimacy for the Bolivian state to make a proposal to Spain, which we hope will be received accordingly”, added Groux.
During Spanish colonial times Potosí was under the jurisdiction of the viceroyship in Lima, Peru. Potosí was also famous for its precious metals particularly a hill with an extraordinarily high content of silver.
Groux said it will wait for the rulings on the appeals (from Odyssey and Peru) to try and establish “some kind of formal agreement with Spain”, avoiding the courts.
“We have no interest in litigating with Spain, which could very well consider the discovery a shared cultural patrimony”, suggested the Bolivian official.
Post ID#16712 - replied 1/2/2010 12:38 PM
Dmack89
Is it time for the Bolivian natives (and others) to start seeking repatriation from Spain for the thousands (or more) affected by Spain's -hhhmmm - techniques -.... in extracting the gold in the first place -
forced slavery
cultural damage
etc......
just trying to shake things up a bit on a sleepy weekend.
Happy New Year to all
forced slavery
cultural damage
etc......
just trying to shake things up a bit on a sleepy weekend.
Happy New Year to all
Post ID#16716 - replied 1/2/2010 4:18 PM
FireArch
Moderator
^ I argued the same point a decade ago in a paper concerning Mel Fischer's operations in a CRM law class (see my post above as well). Naturally, however, one cannot argue that subjugation and domination were illegal, as we'd have to vacate our claims to our own property by logical extension....
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