Topic ID #3972 - posted 7/28/2008 7:26 PM
marehart
Neanderthal Bone Needle
marehart
Have run across comments in serveral pubs and on net that Bordes found a bone needle at the Combe-Grenal (Neanderthal) site. Looked over my 1972 copy of Tale of Two Caves and cannot find mention or pic/drawing. Birdsell refers to this find in his 1972 book but no citation or pic.
Can anyone help me with this?
Thanks :shock:
Can anyone help me with this?
Thanks :shock:
Post ID#10501 - replied 7/28/2008 9:22 PM
Charlie Hatchett
I've run across the same reference to which you refer, but have never been able to track down an image.
Post ID#10509 - replied 7/29/2008 1:58 PM
marehart
Wonder is Birdsell deleted the reference in his 1975 edition?
Still have to wonder just how significant this would be. They had to tailor clothes to survive the cold. This stuff about wraps and ponchos is plain nonsense. If no needles, they must have use punch and laced using sinew or leather thongs. To me the real issue that no one seems to talk about is that they had to be able to envison, cut a pattern and tie knots!
So much is overlooked in quest to keep N in their place. If N knew about sewing, then he most likely knew about making and using rope. How else do people think they got the meat from large animals back home?
Being restricted to hunting in a forest is questionable. Not all of Europe was forest and NEWS FLASH animals migrate and leave the forest--what did they do then, starve (or eat each other)? In a forest fresh water and travel food is not always conveniently on a game trail. Lewis and Clark almost starved to death in northern Idaho as the game was on the plains.
Most likely N also had baskets/packs to carry the stuff as well. Hunting also meant they must have known about smoking/processing meat and carrying water for the trail. Another beef (pun pardon) I have is utility of throwing stick for N. If they were all that strong, they likely didn't need the sucker to throw fifty yards. Their heavier spears would have then been advantageous; kind of like an elephant rifle compared to a varmint gun. Overkill (danother pardon the pun) but is more assured of affect.
To me the ability to tie knots takes considerable intelligence of several facets including problem solving, counting, spatial relationships, complex speech, etc. to pass on knowledge of which knot to use and when. If Homo Erectus could build boats to get to Australia, he too needed knowledge of rope, knots and complex speech.
Don't have all the answers, but can recognize lack of thought by acadamia.
What's your latest date estimate on pre-clovis in Tejas? Where do you think Pre-Clovis came from? What do you think of limiting Monte Verde to "just" 13,000 ya?
Still have to wonder just how significant this would be. They had to tailor clothes to survive the cold. This stuff about wraps and ponchos is plain nonsense. If no needles, they must have use punch and laced using sinew or leather thongs. To me the real issue that no one seems to talk about is that they had to be able to envison, cut a pattern and tie knots!
So much is overlooked in quest to keep N in their place. If N knew about sewing, then he most likely knew about making and using rope. How else do people think they got the meat from large animals back home?
Being restricted to hunting in a forest is questionable. Not all of Europe was forest and NEWS FLASH animals migrate and leave the forest--what did they do then, starve (or eat each other)? In a forest fresh water and travel food is not always conveniently on a game trail. Lewis and Clark almost starved to death in northern Idaho as the game was on the plains.
Most likely N also had baskets/packs to carry the stuff as well. Hunting also meant they must have known about smoking/processing meat and carrying water for the trail. Another beef (pun pardon) I have is utility of throwing stick for N. If they were all that strong, they likely didn't need the sucker to throw fifty yards. Their heavier spears would have then been advantageous; kind of like an elephant rifle compared to a varmint gun. Overkill (danother pardon the pun) but is more assured of affect.
To me the ability to tie knots takes considerable intelligence of several facets including problem solving, counting, spatial relationships, complex speech, etc. to pass on knowledge of which knot to use and when. If Homo Erectus could build boats to get to Australia, he too needed knowledge of rope, knots and complex speech.
Don't have all the answers, but can recognize lack of thought by acadamia.
What's your latest date estimate on pre-clovis in Tejas? Where do you think Pre-Clovis came from? What do you think of limiting Monte Verde to "just" 13,000 ya?
Post ID#10511 - replied 7/29/2008 3:01 PM
Charlie Hatchett
They had to tailor clothes to survive the cold.
Agreed.
What's your latest date estimate on pre-clovis in Tejas? Where do you think Pre-Clovis came from?
At least 14kya-16kya at Wilson-Leonard, Gault, Buttermilk Creek and the site I'm researching. This is a dense concentration of sites, all within a 20-mile radius.
What do you think of limiting Monte Verde to "just" 13,000 ya?
Monte Verde II is pretty firmly dated at to at least 14.6kya. More controversial are 30kya plus dates from MVI.
Agreed.
What's your latest date estimate on pre-clovis in Tejas? Where do you think Pre-Clovis came from?
At least 14kya-16kya at Wilson-Leonard, Gault, Buttermilk Creek and the site I'm researching. This is a dense concentration of sites, all within a 20-mile radius.
What do you think of limiting Monte Verde to "just" 13,000 ya?
Monte Verde II is pretty firmly dated at to at least 14.6kya. More controversial are 30kya plus dates from MVI.
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