http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2011.jpg

Possible PreClovis Retouched Flake- Dorsal View- 2.75"- Recovered In Situ-Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2012.jpg

Possible PreClovis Retouched Flake- Ventral View- 2.75"- Recovered In Situ-Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2013.jpg

Possible PreClovis Retouched Flake- Profile- 2.75"- Recovered In Situ-Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2014.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc





http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2015.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2016.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2017.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2018.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2019.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2023.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2024.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2021.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2022.jpg

Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2020.jpg

Possible PreClovis Retouched Flake- Ventral View- 2.75"- Recovered In Situ-Lima-Igl-Iscc

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%207.jpg

PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Dorsal View- 2 1/2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%208.jpg

PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Ventral View- 2 1/2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%209.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20125.jpg

PreClovis Blade Found In Situ- Dorsal View- 4.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20126.jpg

PreClovis Blade Found In Situ- Ventral View- 4.5"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20127.jpg

PreClovis Blade Found In Situ- Profile View- 4.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2010.jpg

Strat Shot of Where PreClovis Blade Was Found In Situ- Lima-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20599.jpg

Possible PreClovis Handaxe- Dorsal View- 7.75" X 5.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Iscc



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20600.jpg

Possible PreClovis Handaxe- Ventral View- 7.75" X 5.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20601.jpg

Possible PreClovis Handaxe- Distal View- 7.75" X 5.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Iscc



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20602.jpg

Possible PreClovis Handaxe- Lateral/ Distal View- 7.75" X 5.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




Recovery Strata- Southern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




Recovery Strata- Northeastern View- Lima-Igl-Iscc

PreClovis Retouched Flake Tool Recovered In Situ-Dorsal View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




PreClovis Retouched Flake Tool Recovered In Situ-Ventral View- Lima-Igl-Iscc




West, southwest (upstream) view of the Igl stratum covering the in situ retouched flake tool. The blue X marks the location the flake tool was recovered. The red highlight traces the boundary of the intact, southern side of the dissected Igl stratum. Note the northern side of the dissected Igl stratum (right hand background) still covered with sizeable trees. The yellow X marks the position of the furnace. Note the Ica stratum covering the Ked stratum, ca 1.5 meters right of the location of the flake tool in this photo, running parallel to the Southern valley margin.



Flake tool was found in situ, 20 meters downstream (NE) from the furnace and mold, in the western-most intact portion of Lima-Igl, sandwiched between the Igl and Ica strata.

PreClovis Uniface Found In Situ- Dorsal View- 3"- Lima-Igl



PreClovis Uniface Found In Situ- Ventral View- 3"- Lima-Igl




Unifacial tool was recovered in situ, 20 meters downstream (NE) from the furnace and mold, in the western-most intact portion of Lima-Igl.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2029.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Dorsal View- 4.25" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2030.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Ventral View- 4.25" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2031.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Lateral View- 4.25" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2032.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Distal View- 4.25" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2033.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2034.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2035.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2036.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2037.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2038.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2043.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2044.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2039.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Prior to Cleaning- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2040.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Prior to Cleaning- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2041.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Prior to Cleaning- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2042.jpg

PreClovis Chopper Recovered In Situ- Prior to Cleaning- Lima-Igl-Iscc

my old baseball coach would be sayin "good eye, good eye"

my old baseball coach would be sayin "good eye, good eye"

:wink: ...though some would say good imagination. :wink:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2045.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Dorsal View- 4.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2046.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Ventral View- 4.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2047.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Distal View- 4.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2048.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2049.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2050.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2051.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2052.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2053.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2054.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2055.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Dorsal View- 4.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl- Prior to Cleaning




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2056.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Ventral View- 4.5" X 3.5"- Lima-Igl-Prior to Cleaning

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2057.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Dorsal View- 5.25" X 3.75"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2058.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Ventral View- 5.25" X 3.75"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2059.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Distal View- 5.25" X 3.75"- Lima-Igl





http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2060.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Proximal View- 5.25" X 3.75"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2061.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2062.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2063.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2064.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2065.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2066.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2067.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2068.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2069.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2070.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2071.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2072.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2073.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2074.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2075.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2076.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2077.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2078.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2079.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2068.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2069.jpg

PreClovis Blade Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20812.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ-Dorsal View- 5.25" X 3.25" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20813.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ-Ventral View- 5.25" X 3.25" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20814.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ-Distal View- 5.25" X 3.25" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2068.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2069.jpg

PreClovis Handaxe Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl


Length- 133.35

L/W Ratio- 1.62

W/T Ratio- 1.63

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2080.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2081.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Ventral View- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2082.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Distal View- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2083.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2084.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2085.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2086.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2087.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2088.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2089.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2090.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2091.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2092.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2093.jpg

PreClovis Flake Tool Recovered In Situ- 2.25"- Strat Shot- Lima-Igl

I am not a geologist, but I have to be skeptical of your pre-Clovis findings. The stratigraphic context that you are finding these artifacts in--poorly sorted sands and cobbles--indicates a high-velocity environment, that would not be readily conducive to site preservation. I doubt you would find a campsite in that type of environment. I suspect your findings are redeposited from an eroded site situated (or formerly situated) upstream. Also, those bifaces/projectile points look a lot like Early and Middle Archaic points found throughout the southwest.

[quote:="fresno"]I am not a geologist, but I have to be skeptical of your pre-Clovis findings. The stratigraphic context that you are finding these artifacts in--poorly sorted sands and cobbles--indicates a high-velocity environment, that would not be readily conducive to site preservation. I doubt you would find a campsite in that type of environment. I suspect your findings are redeposited from an eroded site situated (or formerly situated) upstream. Also, those bifaces/projectile points look a lot like Early and Middle Archaic points found throughout the southwest.

Howdy.

The gravels are dated by the USGS as Pleistocene. The contact point between the soil and gravel is 11,500 B.P., as dated by Mike Collins et al. (University of Texas- TARL), 8 miles upsteam at the Wilson-Leonard Site. PreClovis artifacts were also recovered from Wilson-Leonard:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Collins%20Wilson%20Leonard.pdf

The layer below 11,500 B.P. was likely deposited rapidly and probably contains artifacts ranging from barely preClovis to very preClovis. The way we're trying to deal with sorting out the preClovis artifacts, date wise, is by dating carbonate in the flake channels. Initial U-Th analyses of two artifacts recovered from the gravels gave dating results of 147,500 B.P. and 13,500 B.P. Again, all sorts of preClovis dates...

What specific points recovered from the local site , recovered in the gravel stratum, resemble Early and Middle Archaic points?

I agree the local findings "are redeposited from an eroded site situated (or formerly situated) upstream" or uphill, but prior to Clovis:

http://www.phpbb88.com/nohandaxesinus/viewtopic.php?t=45&start=0&mforum=nohandaxesinus

Thanks for your input,

I Think this one looks alot like an Early Archaic Tapering Stem:

Here's a similar one from AZ:

This one here escapes me at the moment, but I can look into it. Definitely an Archaic look to it, though...
[/img]

That second projectile point could also be a variety of Early Archaic Tapering Stem/Western Stemmed (ca. 10,700-7000 b.p.) or maybe even Pinto/San Jose-style point (ca. 9500-2800 b.p.). That is my impression, anyway, based upon the photos. It just seems odd that Archaic-looking points would occur below the Clovis Paleoindian horizon if the original contexts were not somehow jumbled. I'm not saying that it is impossible for them to be Pre-Clovis. In fact, there seems to be some solid science to back it up if you have the same stratigraphic units as the Wilson-Leonard Site, 8 miles upstream. That is, no evidence of bioturbation extended through the unconformity between the silty-muddy Clovis deposits and the underlying Unit lgl gravel beds at that site (Collins 1999).
It's just seems peculiar, that's all. :roll:

[quote:="fresno"]I Think this one looks alot like an Early Archaic Tapering Stem:

Here's a similar one from AZ:

This one here escapes me at the moment, but I can look into it. Definitely an Archaic look to it, though...


Morning, Fresno.

I see what your saying on the first artifact, but there's a few things that bother me:

1. The artifact has a flute on its dorsal side and appears to have only one subtle shoulder (right side):



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20613.jpg

2. The flaking pattern appears to be collateral:



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20612.jpg

3. The distal end appears rounded versus pointed, though it's possible the artifact was just reworked to that shape. I have found several other bifaces that have rounded distal ends:

[quote:="CharlieHatchett"]Seems to be a pattern of these rounded, distal end bifaces:

I



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%2014.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Dorsal View- 2.75"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%2014b.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Dorsal View- 2.75"- Lima-Igl

II



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%2015.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Ventral View- 2.25"- Foxtrot-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%2016.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Dorsal View- 2.25"- Foxtrot-Igl


III



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%2017.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Dorsal View- 2.25"- Foxtrot-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%2018.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Ventral View- 2.25"- Foxtrot-Igl


IV



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20613.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Dorsal View- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20614.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Ventral View- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl


V



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/paleo%20artifact%2023.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Dorsal View - 2.5"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/paleo%20artifact%2024.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Ventral View - 2.5"- Lima-Igl

VI



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20273.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Dorsal View- 2.875"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20274.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Ventral View- 2.875"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20275.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Lateral View- 2.875"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20276.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Distal/ Dorsal View- 2.875"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20277.jpg

Possible PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Proximal/ Ventral View- 2.875"- Lima-Igl


VII



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20148.jpg

Possible PreClovis Uniface- 1.25"- Dorsal View- Lima-Ig


l

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20149.jpg

Possible PreClovis Uniface- 1.25"- Ventral View- Lima-Igl


VIII




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/paleo%20artifact%2014.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Ventral View- Foxtrot-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/paleo%20artifact%2015.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Dorsal View- Foxtrot-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/paleo%20artifact%2016.jpg

Possible PreClovis Biface- Dorsal View- Foxtrot-Igl

Thanks for the excellent input. 8-)

[quote:="fresno"]That second projectile point could also be a variety of Early Archaic Tapering Stem/Western Stemmed (ca. 10,700-7000 b.p.) or maybe even Pinto/San Jose-style point (ca. 9500-2800 b.p.). That is my impression, anyway, based upon the photos. It just seems odd that Archaic-looking points would occur below the Clovis Paleoindian horizon if the original contexts were not somehow jumbled. I'm not saying that it is impossible for them to be Pre-Clovis. In fact, there seems to be some solid science to back it up if you have the same stratigraphic units as the Wilson-Leonard Site, 8 miles upstream. That is, no evidence of bioturbation extended through the unconformity between the silty-muddy Clovis deposits and the underlying Unit lgl gravel beds at that site (Collins 1999).
It's just seems peculiar, that's all. :roll:

I definitely see what you're saying, Fresno. The findings completely baffled me at first. I just always assumed stemmed projectile points were, by definition, Archaic. After a lot of research I found a couple of references that might shed light on the anomaly. Britt Bousman, Texas State, has a paper on the Paleo/ Archaic transistion in central Texas:

"...This stemmed projectile point occupation, known as Wilson, is stratified
between Early and Late Palaeoindian occupations..."

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Wilson-Leonard%20Bousman.pdf

The Early and Late Palaeoindian occupations are characterized by Clovis, Plainview-like and Golondrina technologies:



Tools of the Clovis culture. This array of chipped stone tools bears attributes of Clovis workmanship, including the tip of a projectile point (a), large, early-stage biface (b), and flake from a blade core (f). Photo from Collins et al., 1998 (Fig. 7-5).

* Note, iirc, the large biface, with remaining cortex, has been reassigned to preClovis. It was recovered from the gravel.

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/plateaus/images/clovis.html



Evidence recovered from an enigmatic “Bone Bed” component suggesting that Folsom and Plainview intervals may be more contemporary than sequential. The component appears similar to Folsom in terms of lithic technology (eg., ultra-thin bifaces) and association with bison, but it dated to approximately 11,400 to 11,000 B.C., earlier than Folsom, contained a single unclassifiable, unfluted projectile point.

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/plateaus/images/bone-bed-point.html

Note the Bone Bed component dates to earlier than 11,200 B.P., which by the lastest Clovis dating research, assigns this component as preClovis:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Waters+(2007a).pdf

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Waters+(2007s).pdf

Also note, in Bousman's paper, Figure 2, the bone bed component (Isi) underlies the strata assigned as Clovis by Collins (Bed Icl):

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Wilson-Leonard%20Bousman.pdf

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Collins%20Wilson%20Leonard.pdf

So not only do the gravels appear to be preClovis but also the silty deposit (Isi) immediately overlying the gravels.

Next in the sequence are the stemmed Paleo points (Wilson points):



Documentation of a newly identified cultural component—that encompassing the Leanne burial—and including several limestone hearths, pits (possibly for storage or boiling foods with hot stones), and a variety of tools, including grinding stones and Archaic-style, corner notched stemmed projectile points referred to as Wilson. Evidence from the Wilson occupations—wedged between two lanceolate point zones more typical of the Paleoindian—indicate that the transformation to Archaic subsistence strategies was not a linear process.

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/plateaus/images/ap5.html





Recovery of an early human burial, one of the oldest and most complete in North America. The individual—a young female—was somewhere between 18 to 25 years at time of death. She was buried roughly 11,000 years ago (9000 B.C. or 9500 radio carbon years B.P.) in a shallow grave with a worn stone grinding-chopping tool placed at her side and a large limestone boulder above her, perhaps to hold a hide wrapping. Archeologists nicknamed her Leanne (or the “Leanderthal Lady”), in reference to the nearby town of Leander. (See Prehistory/Leanne Burial for more detail. LINK).

Note, the young woman was recovered from the same strata as the stemmed Paleo points.

The Leanne Soil dates between ~9500 and 8250 cal BC (10,000–9500 BP), a mere 800 years after minimum Clovis dates reported by Waters and Stafford:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Waters+(2007a).pdf

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Waters+(2007s).pdf

Overlying the Wilson Component is Unit II, which is characterized by technologies more common to the typical Paleo sequence in Texas:

The youngest 14C assays indicate that Unit II sediments continued to accumulateuntil at least ~8000 cal BC (8800 BP) and possibly as late as 7050 cal BC (8050 BP). Abundant Late Palaeoindian artefacts were excavated from Unit II sediments. These include projectile points (Golondrina, Barber, St Mary’s Hall, Scottsbluff, Big Sandy, San Patrice and Angostura, FIGURE 3f–i), bifaces, gouges, drills, burins, spurs, scrapers and net sinkers.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/Wilson-Leonard%20Bousman.pdf


Golondrina:



St Mary’s Hall



Scottsbluff:



Big Sandy:



Note the stems in the last two...and we're still in Paleo context. :?

San Patrice:



Angostura:



So, one of my research questions is: Does this "cladogenesis" stop at the Wilson component, or does it carry on prior to Clovis?

To date I've found several pieces of evidence that suggest lanceolate and stemmed technologies coexisted prior to Clovis (remember, we're only talking a ca. 1,000-1500 year time span from stemmed Wilson points to preClovis):



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%207.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20613.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%2043.jpg

These were found, in situ, in the gravel stratum, and though others that have probably eroded out of the gravels have been recovered, they have not been included.

Again, your input is much appreciated. 8-)

Well, no one can claim that you haven't done your research. It's good to see people working on the cutting edge of North American prehistory. kudos.

[quote:="fresno"]Well, no one can claim that you haven't done your research. It's good to see people working on the cutting edge of North American prehistory. kudos.

Couldn't stop me if you tried. I'm loving every minute of it, Fresno!

Thanks for the encouragement. 8-) If you're every in the area, give me a shout and I'll take you for a tour.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2094.jpg

PreClovis Chopper- Recovered In Situ- Dorsal View- 4" X 3.25" X 2.25"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2095.jpg

PreClovis Chopper- Recovered In Situ- Ventral View- 4" X 3.25" X 2.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2096.jpg

PreClovis Chopper- Recovered In Situ- Distal View- 4" X 3.25" X 2.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2097.jpg

PreClovis Chopper- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 4" X 3.25" X 2.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site84.jpg

Unit Lima- Northeast View

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%2099.jpg

PreClovis Blade- Recovered In Situ- Dorsal View- 2"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20100.jpg

PreClovis Blade- Recovered In Situ- Ventral View- 2"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20101.jpg

PreClovis Blade- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 2"- Lima-Igl-Iscc




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20102.jpg

PreClovis Blade- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 2"- Lima-Igl-Iscc

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20103.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20104.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20105.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20106.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20107.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20108.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20109.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20147.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20148.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site87.jpg

Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site86.jpg

Strat Shot- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201386.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Dorsal View- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201387.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Ventral View- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201388.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Profile 1- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201389.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Profile 2- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201390.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Distal View/ Cross Section- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201391.jpg

PreClovis Biface Fragment- Proximal View/ Cross Section- 3.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/afw266.jpg

Dorsal Surface Highlighted




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/afw267.jpg

Ventral Surface Highlighted




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/afw269.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/afw270.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/afw271.jpg


Material is Brushy Creek Black Chert.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20111.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20112.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20113.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20114.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20115.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20116.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20117.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20118.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20119.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20120.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20121.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20122.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20123.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20124.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- 3.25"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20125.jpg

PreClovis Core- Recovered In Situ- 3.25"- Lima-Igl



Material is thermally altered Edwards Gray Chert.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20126.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20127.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20128.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20129.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20130.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20131.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20132.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20133.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20134.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20135.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Recovered In Situ- Strat Shot- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20136.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Prior to Cleaning- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20137.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- Prior to Cleaning- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20138.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- After Cleaning- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20139.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- After Cleaning- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20140.jpg

PreClovis Thermally Altered Core- After Cleaning- 3.5" X 2.5" X 2"- Lima-Igl


Material is thermally altered Edwards Gray Chert.

Additional images of the biface, found in situ, at Unit Tango, Bed Igl :



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20141.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Dorsal View- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20142.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Ventral View- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20143.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Proximal View- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20144.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Cross Section/ Distal View- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20145.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Left Profile- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20146.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Right Profile- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl


In Situ Shots:



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%201.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%202.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%203.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%204.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%205.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%206.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20614.jpg




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20615.jpg



Specimen cleaned:



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20612.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Dorsal View- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%20613.jpg

PreClovis Biface- Ventral View- 1.9375"- Tango-Igl

[quote:="scalpcreek"]Charlie,
Yep that one is most definitely man made, artifact for sure. The chert type is a high grade type I have seen before, can't remember where. You can tell it is a very high grade chert and has good color, two things Clovis was known for...and possibly preclovis too. One thing when the first guys arrived, all the best stone was easy pickings.
Open to suggestions? Do you weigh your "points" or finds? I weigh a lot of the small collectable things now...I bought a coin scale, from a coin supply place, that is really nice for small items like this 1.9375" biface. It is digital, it is not a plug in (batteries) it is small, fits in your shirt pocket, it will display the weight in your choice of: grams, ounces, dwt, or ozt. I don't even know what ozt is,....but I typically use grams, or ounces. push a button and it changes mode to the other units. will tell you where to get one if you are interested.
that buttescotch/honey color chert...has got me puzzled, I know there is some like it from Georgia, but that is too far.

Scalp,

I think the material is Edwards Gray that has either been thermally altered or is iron stained on it's exterior. If you look closely at the large images, hints of the underlying gray are apparent, at least to me.

Weighing the artifacts is an interesting idea.

As to easy pickings, I agree. Many of these artifacts were made while the limestone valley floor was exposed, due to scouring of previous fine-grained, alluvial sediments filling the valley. They could get right to the original source of the chert: the limestone bed. After the scouring the basal gravels, containing the artifacts I've been recording, were deposited. After that the fine-grained sediment was deposited. The lower levels of the fine-grained sediment are known to contain Clovis deposits, throughout central Texas, in alluvial terraces.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201500.jpg

Biface Fragment Recovered In Situ- Dorsal View- 1.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201501.jpg

Biface Fragment Recovered In Situ- Ventral View- 1.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201502.jpg

Biface Fragment Recovered In Situ- Proximal View- 1.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201503.jpg

Biface Fragment Recovered In Situ- Distal View- 1.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201504.jpg

Biface Fragment Recovered In Situ- Right Lateral View- 1.5"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201505.jpg

Biface Fragment Recovered In Situ- Left Lateral View- 1.5"- Lima-Igl

C'est incroyable.
[quote:="Charlie Hatchett"]

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%207.jpg

PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Dorsal View- 2 1/2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/stemmed%20biface%208.jpg

PreClovis Stemmed Biface- Ventral View- 2 1/2"- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%209.jpg

Yeah, that was one of my first in situ finds.

My observations agree with early-stemmed traditions in the northwest:

close to Clovis age if not older.

I’ve pondered, because of the close proximity, age wise, if early-

stemmed traditions represent early mtDNA B populations while

early lanceolate techs represent early mtDNA A

populations.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201506.jpg

PreClovis Uniface- Dorsal View- 6cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201507.jpg

PreClovis Uniface- Ventral View- 6cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201508.jpg

PreClovis Uniface- Left Lateral View- 6cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201509.jpg

PreClovis Uniface- Right Lateral View- 6cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201510.jpg

PreClovis Uniface- Distal View- 6cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201511.jpg

PreClovis Uniface- Proximal View- 6cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl

Charlie,

I've looked at your posts with some fascination for a while. The question that keeps coming to mind is how have you determined the stratigraphy is pre-Clovis. It would appear that the gravelly deposits have been re-deposited in one or more clastic events over time.

Coming from Ohio, I may have a bias since here most things ancient were affected over the western half of the state by glaciers up to about 14 KYA and over time, the streams and rivers continue to wander changing their course.

[quote:="dirtscratcher"]Charlie,

I've looked at your posts with some fascination for a while. The question that keeps coming to mind is how have you determined the stratigraphy is pre-Clovis. It would appear that the gravelly deposits have been re-deposited in one or more clastic events over time.

Coming from Ohio, I may have a bias since here most things ancient were affected over the western half of the state by glaciers up to about 14 KYA and over time, the streams and rivers continue to wander changing their course.

I've been wondering the same thing-the pic below (sorry for stealing it Charlie) shows a view much like the areas where I creek hunt. The levee in the background looks like clear evidence of the edge of a meander belt. If the stuff was washing out of that terrace, my interest would be most definitely piqued; however context from the bed load of the stream would seem questionable. Not to say it's even improbable-I'm aware of several stratified sites (notably Page-Ladson) within stream channels, but the conditions that allow them to form don't seem to happen very often.

[quote:="dirtscratcher"]Charlie,

I've looked at your posts with some fascination for a while. The question that keeps coming to mind is how have you determined the stratigraphy is pre-Clovis. It would appear that the gravelly deposits have been re-deposited in one or more clastic events over time.

Coming from Ohio, I may have a bias since here most things ancient were affected over the western half of the state by glaciers up to about 14 KYA and over time, the streams and rivers continue to wander changing their course.

Hi DS.

I think your right: fluvial basal gravel terraces along central Texas creeks below flood plain alluviums are widespread and are thought by local geologists and archs to have been redeposited from upland deposits during a period of severe drought during the late Pleistocene. Between 15.7 and 14.1kya local bog and cave deposits (Bousman 1998 , Toomey et al. 1993, Blum et al. 1994, etc… ) indicate an extended drought. Because of reduced ground cover during the drought, erosion was severe when it did rain. Think about dirt work along highways and how quick engineers are to establish ground cover before erosion ruins their work.

Just upstream from the site I’m studying Collins et al. (Wilson-Leonard, an 11,000-year archeological record of hunter–gatherers in central Texas I–V./ Stratigraphic, Chronometric, and Lithic Technological Evidence for Pre-Clovis at Wilson-Leonard, Texas.) date, via 96 14C assays, the fine-grained sediments immediately overlying the basal gravels to 13.5kya. These deposits are cienega in nature, and from local observations, fill swales on top of the basal gravel terraces:



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site90.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site85.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site89.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site82.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site86.jpg


http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site87.jpg

It’s possible, imo, that deeper swales, containing these fine-grained sediments, contain remnants of older, fine-grained sediments.

It’s also possible that a previous gravel terrace, dating prior to 15.7kya was truncated. The lowest stratum of the basal gravel strata exhibits either extreme thermal alteration or significant iron and manganese staining. The upper half of the basal gravels does not exhibit these phenomena:



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/in%20situ%20102.jpg

It’s quite an interesting problem, imo.

[quote:="StarRider"][quote:="dirtscratcher"]Charlie,

I've looked at your posts with some fascination for a while. The question that keeps coming to mind is how have you determined the stratigraphy is pre-Clovis. It would appear that the gravelly deposits have been re-deposited in one or more clastic events over time.

Coming from Ohio, I may have a bias since here most things ancient were affected over the western half of the state by glaciers up to about 14 KYA and over time, the streams and rivers continue to wander changing their course.

I've been wondering the same thing-the pic below (sorry for stealing it Charlie) shows a view much like the areas where I creek hunt. The levee in the background looks like clear evidence of the edge of a meander belt. If the stuff was washing out of that terrace, my interest would be most definitely piqued; however context from the bed load of the stream would seem questionable. Not to say it's even improbable-I'm aware of several stratified sites (notably Page-Ladson) within stream channels, but the conditions that allow them to form don't seem to happen very often.


Hi SR.

I won’t repeat all the material I just posted above, but I’ll focus on this particular area of the unit (Unit Lima). However that material may help you envision how this particular area looked prior to dissection and scouring of the alluvium.

Here’s a USGS topo of the area from 1981:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site72.gif

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site73.GIF

The remnant of the gravel terrace that you pointed out above runs NE from the “X”, between 640’-650’. This is the same elevation as the surface of the cut bank, on the north side of the creek. Here are some various shots of the unit looking NE and SW:

http://www.phpbb88.com/nohandaxesinus/viewtopic.php?t=45&start=0&mforum=nohandaxesinus

The gravel terrace remnant that we’re discussing is now well below the surface of the cut bank, where the overlying fine-grained sediment is still intact. If the 1981 topo is correct then a good amount of overlying sediment has been eroded off the top of gravel terrace remnant (and the point bar as a whole). Upstream from the point bar the southern half of the alluvium has been completely scoured from the valley bedrock floor. If current conditions continue then the point bar (including the remnant we’re discussing) will be scoured also.

Here are some shots that have helped me envision how the current point bar looked when it had it’s overlying, fine-grained sediment:

http://www.phpbb88.com/nohandaxesinus/viewtopic.php?t=97&mforum=nohandaxesinus

Imagine the water as the previous overlying strata, and raise it up to even with the surface of the cut bank in the background.

All that said, I do think more temporal certainty can be assigned to the artifacts found in situ in the cut bank, where the overlying strata still exists. And, of course, even more certainty would exist concerning artifacts recovered in a professional excavation of the unit.

Also, as Desert Rat pointed out in another thread, even though we may be able to hone in on the age of the basal gravels, that still doesn’t “prove” that all the artifacts recovered from them are preClovis. His point is we don’t know when the Clovis era began. I guess the same could be said for any potential preClovis site. What can be said with certainty is artifacts have been found in strata older than strata containing Clovis techs. I’ve had some surprises:

http://www.phpbb88.com/nohandaxesinus/viewtopic.php?mforum=nohandaxesinus&t=30&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=2&mforum=nohandaxesinus

From all available data the strata from where this biface was recovered is older than 14kya. However, it's fluted, like Clovis bifaces. To me, though, it doesn't look like a "classic" Clovis biface: It seems like it might be approaching a stemmed versus lanceolate tech. If you look at the dorsal view, the lateral edges are parallel until the flute stops. Then the lateral edges become convex-convex or plano-convex. :?

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201512.jpg

PreClovis Core/ Chopper- Dorsal View- 9cm X 9cm X 4.75cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201513.jpg

PreClovis Core/ Chopper- Ventral View- 9cm X 9cm X 4.75cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201514.jpg

PreClovis Core/ Chopper- Distal/ Ventral View- 9cm X 9cm X 4.75cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201515.jpg

PreClovis Core/ Chopper- Distal/ Dorsal View- 9cm X 9cm X 4.75cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/preclovis%201516.jpg

PreClovis Core/ Chopper- Right Lateral View- 9cm X 9cm X 4.75cm- In Situ- Lima-Igl

Unless the photos are doing the piece a major injustice, I don't think I'd spend more than five minutes on it and, if I found it on survey I wouldn't bother to collect it.

Bob,

If you're that out of touch then I don't take your opinion seriously and you should stick to Holocene deposits (pottery shards, etc...). If I were your supervisor, and you didn't collect this specimen, I'd fire you.

Sorry, but you're exhibiting an extreme ignorance of Paleo techs. Patina, carbonate deposits, stratigraphy, replication upstream, etc...

I'm crossing my fingers, hoping that your just joking around. :?


[Pix removed: (Mod) Charlie, I already modified the post above so folks can refer to it to see the pics. They dont need to be reposted every time you speak to it. That just makes these topics extremely hard to follow. I hope you understand.]

Bob makes a good point regarding collecting while out on projects. Very, very seldom do I collect anything unless it is diagnostic and is on federal land and even then, the feds often stipulate no collection, even if it is diagnostic. Only once did I ever make an exception to this and that was when we found a choice Eden point. We never collect on private land unless the land owner has made a special stipulation for us to do so, but that rarely happens.

Scott

[quote:="DesertRat"]Well, I dunno. In my part of the world, surveys are all non-collection except for puzzlers that need more study to id, like unusual Mexican polychromes, diagnostic but rare lithic artifacts, etc. The other exception is that diagnostic paleo points, since they're relatively rare, are usually collected. We don't collect bifaces, but sometimes someone just can't resist because some of them are so damned beautiful.

Bob

[quote:="scottyj432"]Bob makes a good point regarding collecting while out on projects. Very, very seldom do I collect anything unless it is diagnostic and is on federal land and even then, the feds often stipulate no collection, even if it is diagnostic. Only once did I ever make an exception to this and that was when we found a choice Eden point. We never collect on private land unless the land owner has made a special stipulation for us to do so, but that rarely happens.

Scott

So if you saw this fluted base we're discussing sticking out of strata that is known to be Pleistocene in age, you would't recover it? Keep in mind, with another rain or two the specimen would have been swept down stream and a lot of context would be lost.

For all I knew at the time, the point could have been complete.

[Pix removed: (Mod) Charlie, I already modified the post above so folks can refer to it to see the pics. They dont need to be reposted every time you speak to it. That just makes these topics extremely hard to follow. I hope you understand.]

No problem, Rich.

Thanks.