Topic ID #5699 - posted 8/13/2009 11:46 PM
Alaskan_Lithics
Collection For Sale-Where should this collection reside
Alaskan_Lithics
This is a Craigs list posting. Any thoughts on where this collection should reside. BTW I just so happen to know this person.
Up for "ownership" is the largest private authentic collection of Columbia River Art and Artifacts. This is a pristine collection found legally during the 40's 50's and 60's in Mostly Eastern Washington. As for an investment this is better than gold or silver.As nobody is producing this type of art and artifacts that a pre-history. The collection is so large that a 2,500 sq ft Museum with walk in vault is needed to store the entire collection. Found legal during the 40's 50's and 60's prior to completion on the Columbia and Snake River Dams. The collection is very well photographed from the late 50's until the early 80's. Therefore we fall under grandfathering rights.by both photo's, personal viewing and seen by more the a dozen professional archaeologist from the 50's to the late 70's. We have colored photos of the collection in 1977 and a VCR made in the early 90's. The State of Washington nor the Corp of Engineers do not have any claims to any of the items, as we hold no human remains or any object of funerary or other sacred objects.
At this this point in time I'm a Professional archaeologist with degrees from Washington State University-Vancouver in Anthropology. This is no sting operation and will be thoroughly protected by our Law Firm in Longview, WA. of Walstead and Mertscing 360-423-5220. We would recommended any serious buyer have legal council. This is a once in a life time chance for a collection of this size and quality It will go to the highest bidder and we are advertising nation and international. We have about 225 plus frames plus 17 display case from 4 ft to 8 ft full all full of art and artifacts. We have some very nice Baskets from the Columbia River Area, about 70 % is Mid-Columbia River. This area is from Vantage to Upper Dalles Dam area including the Dalles Dam, John Day Dam Reservoir, McNary Dam Reservoir, and Priest Rapids and Vantage Area. All of this are is now gone buried beneath the waters of those Columbia River Dams. We have some Upper Columbia River and Lower Columbia River mostly from the Wells Dam Reservoir and the lower Okangons. We have the most impressive collection on Shoto Clay from the Lake Vancouver and Sauvie Island near Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, WA. Lots of points and stone items from the Dalles area and from Wakemap Mound area of the Long Narrows. Some 50 or so of our points are listed in "Arrowheads" by "Robert Overstreet" over the years. Lot of nice stone some carved items from the Dalles and Tri-Cities area. It is our guess that State of Washington and Federal government will write of 2.5 to 3.5 million in tax credits for any persons our company willing to place on public view within the state of Washington. So don't walk away with out viewing or a phone call about this pretense authentic art and artifacts Collection. About 85% of the collections was found by our family many who have passed on. We have over the last 10 years legal purchased a few items at estate auctions, old friends were dug with 40 years ago and even got a few from e-bay, but have had to returned about 30% as being modern or reworks. We have nothing in this collection that we know is modern. We have found some very unpleasant nasty and illiterate few who have never seen the collection or reviewed any parts of it. This few hatting party are trying to smear our name and the authentic collection because they are to lazy to look at the collection or have some fundamentalist hate of archaeology. Or are so into Socialism in which everything is owned by the government. Some have a hatred of professional archaeology and fowl view of collection for authenticity or saving for our National heritage. We need not have any more of this trash e-mail. If any one knows how to contact the Bill Gates Foundation this would be worth them taking a look at for the future of Pacific Northwest Archaeology plus a tax right off.
[Moderator:] As far a AFW.com is concerned we do not promote the sale of cultural resources irrespective of their legal status. I am going to leave this up for the time being for academic purposes. The post has been edited. If this is unacceptable please feel free to remove it, or request that it be deleted.
Up for "ownership" is the largest private authentic collection of Columbia River Art and Artifacts. This is a pristine collection found legally during the 40's 50's and 60's in Mostly Eastern Washington. As for an investment this is better than gold or silver.As nobody is producing this type of art and artifacts that a pre-history. The collection is so large that a 2,500 sq ft Museum with walk in vault is needed to store the entire collection. Found legal during the 40's 50's and 60's prior to completion on the Columbia and Snake River Dams. The collection is very well photographed from the late 50's until the early 80's. Therefore we fall under grandfathering rights.by both photo's, personal viewing and seen by more the a dozen professional archaeologist from the 50's to the late 70's. We have colored photos of the collection in 1977 and a VCR made in the early 90's. The State of Washington nor the Corp of Engineers do not have any claims to any of the items, as we hold no human remains or any object of funerary or other sacred objects.
At this this point in time I'm a Professional archaeologist with degrees from Washington State University-Vancouver in Anthropology. This is no sting operation and will be thoroughly protected by our Law Firm in Longview, WA. of Walstead and Mertscing 360-423-5220. We would recommended any serious buyer have legal council. This is a once in a life time chance for a collection of this size and quality It will go to the highest bidder and we are advertising nation and international. We have about 225 plus frames plus 17 display case from 4 ft to 8 ft full all full of art and artifacts. We have some very nice Baskets from the Columbia River Area, about 70 % is Mid-Columbia River. This area is from Vantage to Upper Dalles Dam area including the Dalles Dam, John Day Dam Reservoir, McNary Dam Reservoir, and Priest Rapids and Vantage Area. All of this are is now gone buried beneath the waters of those Columbia River Dams. We have some Upper Columbia River and Lower Columbia River mostly from the Wells Dam Reservoir and the lower Okangons. We have the most impressive collection on Shoto Clay from the Lake Vancouver and Sauvie Island near Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, WA. Lots of points and stone items from the Dalles area and from Wakemap Mound area of the Long Narrows. Some 50 or so of our points are listed in "Arrowheads" by "Robert Overstreet" over the years. Lot of nice stone some carved items from the Dalles and Tri-Cities area. It is our guess that State of Washington and Federal government will write of 2.5 to 3.5 million in tax credits for any persons our company willing to place on public view within the state of Washington. So don't walk away with out viewing or a phone call about this pretense authentic art and artifacts Collection. About 85% of the collections was found by our family many who have passed on. We have over the last 10 years legal purchased a few items at estate auctions, old friends were dug with 40 years ago and even got a few from e-bay, but have had to returned about 30% as being modern or reworks. We have nothing in this collection that we know is modern. We have found some very unpleasant nasty and illiterate few who have never seen the collection or reviewed any parts of it. This few hatting party are trying to smear our name and the authentic collection because they are to lazy to look at the collection or have some fundamentalist hate of archaeology. Or are so into Socialism in which everything is owned by the government. Some have a hatred of professional archaeology and fowl view of collection for authenticity or saving for our National heritage. We need not have any more of this trash e-mail. If any one knows how to contact the Bill Gates Foundation this would be worth them taking a look at for the future of Pacific Northwest Archaeology plus a tax right off.
[Moderator:] As far a AFW.com is concerned we do not promote the sale of cultural resources irrespective of their legal status. I am going to leave this up for the time being for academic purposes. The post has been edited. If this is unacceptable please feel free to remove it, or request that it be deleted.
Post ID#15021 - replied 8/14/2009 9:17 AM
Circumambulate
:twisted:
Should we give this group further advertising by posting this to AFW? On my way out but will respond vorciferously later.
:evil:
My immediate reaction is negative. This is the case on several levels.
1 - the foremost objection that I have is that if this individual is indeed an archaeologist, then the posting of this ad on Craigs List is in particularly poor judgement. Never having known of anyone selling a collection , I would assume that there would be auction houses that have dealt with similar sales, treat the artifacts with care, respect and follow whatever legal procedures are in place. I suspect that would also place the collection on display/publication which is what any archaeologist knows is a commmitment/obligation to provenienced objects 'legally collected." a reputable museumcould be contacted.
2 - The political diatribe is defensive, self-serving and in fact, whining.
3- I wonder how the University of Washington at Vancouver might feel so represented on Craif's List.
4- Evoking Bill Gates name and the Feds in terms of tax breaks or otherwise sounds like a Madison Avenue/advertising ploy if I ever heard one
5- The state or Feds may have no claim but the Chinook people may think otherwise
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
To the author of this post Alaskan_Lithics what do you think of this situation? Why did you post this really? and you state that you know this person...in what context?
Should we give this group further advertising by posting this to AFW? On my way out but will respond vorciferously later.
:evil:
My immediate reaction is negative. This is the case on several levels.
1 - the foremost objection that I have is that if this individual is indeed an archaeologist, then the posting of this ad on Craigs List is in particularly poor judgement. Never having known of anyone selling a collection , I would assume that there would be auction houses that have dealt with similar sales, treat the artifacts with care, respect and follow whatever legal procedures are in place. I suspect that would also place the collection on display/publication which is what any archaeologist knows is a commmitment/obligation to provenienced objects 'legally collected." a reputable museumcould be contacted.
2 - The political diatribe is defensive, self-serving and in fact, whining.
3- I wonder how the University of Washington at Vancouver might feel so represented on Craif's List.
4- Evoking Bill Gates name and the Feds in terms of tax breaks or otherwise sounds like a Madison Avenue/advertising ploy if I ever heard one
5- The state or Feds may have no claim but the Chinook people may think otherwise
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
To the author of this post Alaskan_Lithics what do you think of this situation? Why did you post this really? and you state that you know this person...in what context?
Post ID#15022 - replied 8/14/2009 9:37 AM
Jeandron
I strongly agree that any mention of the actual sale of the artifacts should be deleted. The discussion on the legitimacy of the sale of cultural items is fine but lets not promote this stuff. The sale of artifacts has no place in this forum - my two cents worth.
Post ID#15023 - replied 8/14/2009 11:10 AM
cmarknicholson
Mary Collins at Washington State University would be a good contact. She curates the museum there.
Post ID#15025 - replied 8/14/2009 2:30 PM
FireArch
Moderator
Not to pick nits, but how is it a "professional archaeologist with degrees from Washington State University-Vancouver in Anthropology" managed to graduate from said institutions of higher learning without being able to write in a coherent and grammatically correct manner? This seriously degrades, in my viewpoint, the legitimacy of the offer, especially so when diatribes about smear campaigns, and socialist government takeovers are offered into the mix.
This is a for-profit off-load of cultural material. OK, that's fine, but it doesnt belong on AFW.com
If the items belongs anywhere I would say either in local musea or sorted by cultural type and given to the respective native group representatives for their collection.
This is a for-profit off-load of cultural material. OK, that's fine, but it doesnt belong on AFW.com
If the items belongs anywhere I would say either in local musea or sorted by cultural type and given to the respective native group representatives for their collection.
Post ID#15030 - replied 8/14/2009 6:48 PM
Charlie Hatchett
"...Up for sale is the largest private authentic collection of Columbia River Art and Artifacts..."
"...This is a for-profit off-load of cultural material..."
You think? :?
I say nix this thread ASAP.
"...This is a for-profit off-load of cultural material..."
You think? :?
I say nix this thread ASAP.
Post ID#15034 - replied 8/14/2009 9:04 PM
Mick
It amazes me that people can claim to be professionals and well-educated when they cant even make simple sentences with correct spelling and punctuation. This reeks of someone attempting to get rid of illegally gained artifacts before they get investigated. I'd say remove the posting.
/dontgetit/
/dontgetit/
Post ID#15036 - replied 8/14/2009 11:52 PM
Windustsearch
It isn't illegal. It is mostly the Mid-Columbia Archaeological Society, which was excavated under direction of an archaeologist.
MCAS material should go to Pullman (Mary Collins).
MCAS material should go to Pullman (Mary Collins).
Post ID#15037 - replied 8/15/2009 12:01 AM
Alaskan_Lithics
[quote:="Circumambulate"]:twisted:
Should we give this group further advertising by posting this to AFW? On my way out but will respond vorciferously later.
:evil:
My immediate reaction is negative. This is the case on several levels.
1 - the foremost objection that I have is that if this individual is indeed an archaeologist, then the posting of this ad on Craigs List is in particularly poor judgement. Never having known of anyone selling a collection , I would assume that there would be auction houses that have dealt with similar sales, treat the artifacts with care, respect and follow whatever legal procedures are in place. I suspect that would also place the collection on display/publication which is what any archaeologist knows is a commmitment/obligation to provenienced objects 'legally collected." a reputable museumcould be contacted.
2 - The political diatribe is defensive, self-serving and in fact, whining.
3- I wonder how the University of Washington at Vancouver might feel so represented on Craif's List.
4- Evoking Bill Gates name and the Feds in terms of tax breaks or otherwise sounds like a Madison Avenue/advertising ploy if I ever heard one
5- The state or Feds may have no claim but the Chinook people may think otherwise
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
To the author of this post Alaskan_Lithics what do you think of this situation? Why did you post this really? and you state that you know this person...in what context?
TO THE MOD, Thank you for editing the post. I wasn't posting it on the AFW website to promote the sale. I wasn't paying attention all I did was copy and paste.
My association with the seller was minor I was webmaster for his site, that is all. I have talked with this person on several occasions, however we have never met.
Personally as a collector. Funny I am saying this. This collection should NEVER go up for sale. It belongs in a museum period.
Should we give this group further advertising by posting this to AFW? On my way out but will respond vorciferously later.
:evil:
My immediate reaction is negative. This is the case on several levels.
1 - the foremost objection that I have is that if this individual is indeed an archaeologist, then the posting of this ad on Craigs List is in particularly poor judgement. Never having known of anyone selling a collection , I would assume that there would be auction houses that have dealt with similar sales, treat the artifacts with care, respect and follow whatever legal procedures are in place. I suspect that would also place the collection on display/publication which is what any archaeologist knows is a commmitment/obligation to provenienced objects 'legally collected." a reputable museumcould be contacted.
2 - The political diatribe is defensive, self-serving and in fact, whining.
3- I wonder how the University of Washington at Vancouver might feel so represented on Craif's List.
4- Evoking Bill Gates name and the Feds in terms of tax breaks or otherwise sounds like a Madison Avenue/advertising ploy if I ever heard one
5- The state or Feds may have no claim but the Chinook people may think otherwise
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
To the author of this post Alaskan_Lithics what do you think of this situation? Why did you post this really? and you state that you know this person...in what context?
TO THE MOD, Thank you for editing the post. I wasn't posting it on the AFW website to promote the sale. I wasn't paying attention all I did was copy and paste.
My association with the seller was minor I was webmaster for his site, that is all. I have talked with this person on several occasions, however we have never met.
Personally as a collector. Funny I am saying this. This collection should NEVER go up for sale. It belongs in a museum period.
Post ID#15038 - replied 8/15/2009 12:12 AM
Alaskan_Lithics
[quote:="Jeandron"]I strongly agree that any mention of the actual sale of the artifacts should be deleted. The discussion on the legitimacy of the sale of cultural items is fine but lets not promote this stuff. The sale of artifacts has no place in this forum - my two cents worth.
Sorry, My intent was not to promote the sale just a discussion on the legitimacy of the sale of cultural items and where should a collection like this reside. If the owner of the collection needs money and museums are already overflowing with cultural items. What should be done? Why should it "go" to the WSU for curation.
Sorry, My intent was not to promote the sale just a discussion on the legitimacy of the sale of cultural items and where should a collection like this reside. If the owner of the collection needs money and museums are already overflowing with cultural items. What should be done? Why should it "go" to the WSU for curation.
Post ID#15043 - replied 8/15/2009 5:00 PM
KidCharlemagne
[quote:="Alaskan_Lithics"][quote:="Jeandron"]I strongly agree that any mention of the actual sale of the artifacts should be deleted. The discussion on the legitimacy of the sale of cultural items is fine but lets not promote this stuff. The sale of artifacts has no place in this forum - my two cents worth.
Sorry, My intent was not to promote the sale just a discussion on the legitimacy of the sale of cultural items and where should a collection like this reside. If the owner of the collection needs money and museums are already overflowing with cultural items. What should be done? Why should it "go" to the WSU for curation.
"Should" means "in an ideal world". And yes, in an ideal world it would not go up for sale.
The reason archaeologists as a rule disapprove of artifact sales is not because we want them all to ourselves. Most of us don't care, and frankly can't understand people who pay money for them. I can't imagine spending money on a point, no matter how pretty it is.
We disapprove because artifact sales help to create a market, and while a number of artifacts that are sold are the result of legitimate collecting (as far as that term can be applied, anyway), a market creates demand, and demand typically results in the illicit, uncontrolled, and certainly undocumented excavation of sites for profit. And the casualty there is the loss of any and all information contained within those sites.
Google "destruction of Craig Mound" and you can see the kind of damage done to archaeological sites in the name of profit.
Sorry, My intent was not to promote the sale just a discussion on the legitimacy of the sale of cultural items and where should a collection like this reside. If the owner of the collection needs money and museums are already overflowing with cultural items. What should be done? Why should it "go" to the WSU for curation.
"Should" means "in an ideal world". And yes, in an ideal world it would not go up for sale.
The reason archaeologists as a rule disapprove of artifact sales is not because we want them all to ourselves. Most of us don't care, and frankly can't understand people who pay money for them. I can't imagine spending money on a point, no matter how pretty it is.
We disapprove because artifact sales help to create a market, and while a number of artifacts that are sold are the result of legitimate collecting (as far as that term can be applied, anyway), a market creates demand, and demand typically results in the illicit, uncontrolled, and certainly undocumented excavation of sites for profit. And the casualty there is the loss of any and all information contained within those sites.
Google "destruction of Craig Mound" and you can see the kind of damage done to archaeological sites in the name of profit.
Post ID#15045 - replied 8/16/2009 1:54 PM
BAJR
People can also read about the wholesale destruction of Bulgarian Heritage - just so a person can buy, a kilo of coins, a statue fragment, a piece of the past...
http://en.calameo.com/books/0000627297fcccc634fd5
The Looting of Ratiaria
The tragedy of the wholesale looting of an ancient Roman city in north western Bulgaria.
The fact that an artefact is given a commercial value, means it is subject to commercial / criminal activity. Whether it is drugs barons, Russian Mafia, Taliban… the item is not important, but the person/collector who buys whatever is on offer, is basically supporting a whole host of criminal activities from gun running, drugs, sex trade….etc…
Its not my fault, is not good enough… you buy ?? whether museum or individual – then you become part of any number of activities, that perhaps you may not want to be.
This sale, in my mind is just sad.. sad, because as Kid says… we don’t care about the dollar… we just care. On one site we found around 12million pounds worth of treasure.. but not one of use drooled at the thought of taking even one item… (even though we were on 125 pounds a week)
I never have and never will agree with sales of artefacts.. it only encourages what happens.
This sale may indeed be absolutely legal, but that’s not the same as … does it make you feel like it ‘should’ not happen?
We deal in ideals... and I know the reality is different, but hey.. count me in for having ideals - I like the company I keep.
http://en.calameo.com/books/0000627297fcccc634fd5
The Looting of Ratiaria
The tragedy of the wholesale looting of an ancient Roman city in north western Bulgaria.
The fact that an artefact is given a commercial value, means it is subject to commercial / criminal activity. Whether it is drugs barons, Russian Mafia, Taliban… the item is not important, but the person/collector who buys whatever is on offer, is basically supporting a whole host of criminal activities from gun running, drugs, sex trade….etc…
Its not my fault, is not good enough… you buy ?? whether museum or individual – then you become part of any number of activities, that perhaps you may not want to be.
This sale, in my mind is just sad.. sad, because as Kid says… we don’t care about the dollar… we just care. On one site we found around 12million pounds worth of treasure.. but not one of use drooled at the thought of taking even one item… (even though we were on 125 pounds a week)
I never have and never will agree with sales of artefacts.. it only encourages what happens.
This sale may indeed be absolutely legal, but that’s not the same as … does it make you feel like it ‘should’ not happen?
We deal in ideals... and I know the reality is different, but hey.. count me in for having ideals - I like the company I keep.
Post ID#15047 - replied 8/16/2009 4:40 PM
Jeandron
Just a quick note about the sale of cultural items from archaeological contexts...the practice isn't legal everywhere. It is prohibited in Canada and it may interest the American participants that it is also illegal to sell across the US/Canada border too, so that may give some protection to a handful of collections. Admittedly though, little attention is paid to the destruction of arch. sites through development in some jurisdictions so we certainly have a long way to go.
Post ID#15055 - replied 8/17/2009 2:10 PM
FireArch
Moderator
Joel, no worries about the cut and paste - that's why we have Mods.
Looking at the commentary that followed, thanks for posting it up. Lots of good info, advice, and opinion developing.
Looking at the commentary that followed, thanks for posting it up. Lots of good info, advice, and opinion developing.
Post ID#15057 - replied 8/17/2009 2:38 PM
BAJR
Joel is... imho - highlighting many thorny issues that we do actually have to wrestle with. It can be too easy to either become outraged.. which has no effect.. or steer clear .. which has no effect..
I was impressed at his strong opinion that as a collector he was of the opinion this should not be sold. It perhaps shows that we do have more in common than perhaps we think?
so it was a good post.. and a stimulating series of followups.
I was impressed at his strong opinion that as a collector he was of the opinion this should not be sold. It perhaps shows that we do have more in common than perhaps we think?
so it was a good post.. and a stimulating series of followups.
Post ID#15062 - replied 8/17/2009 8:31 PM
Mick
This is sort of on the same topic... I live on a known recorded site here in Arkansas. I am half Cherokee, I have tilled up lithics and pottery on my property when I was preparing gardens in the spring. I leave them in the ground for the most part, but there are surface scatters everywhere in the back pasture. Am I unethical in keeping these things in my house from my own land, or should I leave them where they lay? Am I repatriating them to myself if I bring them in my house? I am an archaeologist for over 30 years and have never taken an artifact from a site, but here on my property on a recorded site seems different for some reason. Opinions? /sher/
Post ID#15066 - replied 8/17/2009 9:25 PM
FireArch
Moderator
Mick, you're not doing anything worse to the site than anyone else would, so to mitigate the adverse effects I would document what has been done. How about that?
Post ID#15082 - replied 8/18/2009 11:02 AM
Charlie Hatchett
Mick,
I'm not a pro, but I've had a lot of input from pros about a site I've been basically salvaging after each strong rain for the last 4+years. I think it may have been Prisoner (a forum member here) that turned me onto this electronic recording program for the state of Texas:
http://atlas.thc.state.tx.us/texsite/texsite-about.asp
Maybe Arkansas has something similar?
I've been documenting each of the finds by: taking several images of each; recording the lat/long/alt/date; and recording a short comment on each. I enter these into the TexSite software. Then I post each online for others to see. I haven't heard any gripes from the local pros...they've been quite helpful when I have questions. Of course I'm not digging willy nilly: just gathering what has eroded out of the creek's alluvium. And I'm not trying to sell the stuff. I don't want any of this to end up under someone's bed in a cigar box. What a waste that would be. Also, I don't buy artifacts.
Like Rich said, I don't think you're doing anything wrong...just mitigating losses. I think recording the lat/long/alt/date of each find and bagging it with the find is a good idea. Who knows: some grad student may want to research your site someday. Heck, someday maybe you'll want to write a report on it.
I'm not a pro, but I've had a lot of input from pros about a site I've been basically salvaging after each strong rain for the last 4+years. I think it may have been Prisoner (a forum member here) that turned me onto this electronic recording program for the state of Texas:
http://atlas.thc.state.tx.us/texsite/texsite-about.asp
Maybe Arkansas has something similar?
I've been documenting each of the finds by: taking several images of each; recording the lat/long/alt/date; and recording a short comment on each. I enter these into the TexSite software. Then I post each online for others to see. I haven't heard any gripes from the local pros...they've been quite helpful when I have questions. Of course I'm not digging willy nilly: just gathering what has eroded out of the creek's alluvium. And I'm not trying to sell the stuff. I don't want any of this to end up under someone's bed in a cigar box. What a waste that would be. Also, I don't buy artifacts.
Like Rich said, I don't think you're doing anything wrong...just mitigating losses. I think recording the lat/long/alt/date of each find and bagging it with the find is a good idea. Who knows: some grad student may want to research your site someday. Heck, someday maybe you'll want to write a report on it.
Post ID#15089 - replied 8/18/2009 1:03 PM
Mick
Hey Charlie, Fire...
As I said in my initial post, it has been well documented and a report done by me and the AAS and on file at the AAS in Fayetteville. It is a middle Mississippian site with an earlier Woodland component involved as well. Our property is within eyesight of the Toltec Mounds State Archaological Park here in Scott and I have to believe that the site on my land is associated with Toltec. Just about everywhere around here has some sort of surface lithic deposit due to generations of farming and mechanization. I work part time at Toltec when I am home, and people just drop off boxes of lithics and pottery at the front door of the lab on a regular basis when we are closed.
I definitley GPS any surface finds I have come across, as well as do the general photos and provenance things. I've also found ppk's and sherds in road fill when the county road crews bring in gravel or dirt for county road repair. Our location and proximity to the Arkansas River made this entire area ideal for my ancestors to live and sustain themselves. As a professional archaeologist for over 30 years, I have seen the destruction of several sites in this region due to farming and other ag practices. Even at Toltec, farming destroyed most of the mounds back in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
I am not a collector by any means, I just have a few things in my house in boxes with provenance info from my own property.
As I said in my initial post, it has been well documented and a report done by me and the AAS and on file at the AAS in Fayetteville. It is a middle Mississippian site with an earlier Woodland component involved as well. Our property is within eyesight of the Toltec Mounds State Archaological Park here in Scott and I have to believe that the site on my land is associated with Toltec. Just about everywhere around here has some sort of surface lithic deposit due to generations of farming and mechanization. I work part time at Toltec when I am home, and people just drop off boxes of lithics and pottery at the front door of the lab on a regular basis when we are closed.
I definitley GPS any surface finds I have come across, as well as do the general photos and provenance things. I've also found ppk's and sherds in road fill when the county road crews bring in gravel or dirt for county road repair. Our location and proximity to the Arkansas River made this entire area ideal for my ancestors to live and sustain themselves. As a professional archaeologist for over 30 years, I have seen the destruction of several sites in this region due to farming and other ag practices. Even at Toltec, farming destroyed most of the mounds back in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
I am not a collector by any means, I just have a few things in my house in boxes with provenance info from my own property.
Post ID#15090 - replied 8/18/2009 4:29 PM
BAJR
Sounds just like me as well...
I have a few artefacts lying about from my own property. And yes.. I am sad enough to locate stuff.. even drew parts of my house when they were renovated.. will anybody care :wink:
Thee is a question to how much is enough? But when sites are rare and finds are few... every little helps!
I have a few artefacts lying about from my own property. And yes.. I am sad enough to locate stuff.. even drew parts of my house when they were renovated.. will anybody care :wink:
Thee is a question to how much is enough? But when sites are rare and finds are few... every little helps!
Post ID#15091 - replied 8/18/2009 5:11 PM
Charlie Hatchett
“…it has been well documented and a report done by me and the AAS and on file at the AAS in Fayetteville…”
“…I definitley GPS any surface finds I have come across, as well as do the general photos and provenance things…”
“…I am not a collector by any means, I just have a few things in my house in boxes with provenance info from my own property…”
Sounds like your site is good hands.
Have you had any of the material from your site curated? I’ve been thinking lately that I probably need to start thinking about soliciting a curation agreement with a local facility.
“…I definitley GPS any surface finds I have come across, as well as do the general photos and provenance things…”
“…I am not a collector by any means, I just have a few things in my house in boxes with provenance info from my own property…”
Sounds like your site is good hands.
Have you had any of the material from your site curated? I’ve been thinking lately that I probably need to start thinking about soliciting a curation agreement with a local facility.
Post ID#15921 - replied 11/1/2009 8:09 PM
bcartifacts
[quote:="Alaskan_Lithics"]This is a Craigs list posting. Any thoughts on where this collection should reside. BTW I just so happen to know this person. [/Mod][/size][/b]
I have personally seen this private collection and also have met an know the owner. I must say that other than the Gene Favell collection in Klamath Falls Oregon its the nicest privately displayed and well documented collections I have ever had the great privilege of seeing in person. I have seen many private and Museum collections I might add. It is a shame that the reality of old age, medical bills and even the cost to house such a collection become to great for most average People and have to be sold or donated at some point in there lives. We as collectors are only care takers and that's for a very short period of time in the life of most artifacts. I guess my point is, in a perfect world it should stay where it is where it can be viewed and enjoyed by all and or be sold or donated to a public or private Museum in the Northwest that would display it and allow everyone to enjoy it. That is where this and most legally obtained large North-western collections belong, to be displayed for all to see and learn from. JMHO
I have personally seen this private collection and also have met an know the owner. I must say that other than the Gene Favell collection in Klamath Falls Oregon its the nicest privately displayed and well documented collections I have ever had the great privilege of seeing in person. I have seen many private and Museum collections I might add. It is a shame that the reality of old age, medical bills and even the cost to house such a collection become to great for most average People and have to be sold or donated at some point in there lives. We as collectors are only care takers and that's for a very short period of time in the life of most artifacts. I guess my point is, in a perfect world it should stay where it is where it can be viewed and enjoyed by all and or be sold or donated to a public or private Museum in the Northwest that would display it and allow everyone to enjoy it. That is where this and most legally obtained large North-western collections belong, to be displayed for all to see and learn from. JMHO
Post ID#15959 - replied 11/4/2009 7:51 PM
GreyMorel
Did any of you collect arrowheads as children?
Most museums have back-logs of untagged and unclassified artifacts that will probably never be displayed and remain unknown to the general public. Donating this collection to a museum would doom 99% of it to dust collection.
"culture" is defined in an anthro/socio context as a shared system of beliefs, ideas, and behaviors between a group of people.
Studying and observing an artifact or "cultural object" is a way for us in the present to catch a fleeting glimpse into a departed world. It lets us briefly share some fragment of culture with those who have passed. It stands to reason that this phenomenon is the motivation behind many of our interests in anthropology and archeology to begin with.
The only way for the "culture" of which so many previous posters have spoken to live on is for these "cultural artifacts" to come into contact with real people who appreciate them.
Without people, these "cultural objects" amount to little more than a pile of stones.
Most museums have back-logs of untagged and unclassified artifacts that will probably never be displayed and remain unknown to the general public. Donating this collection to a museum would doom 99% of it to dust collection.
"culture" is defined in an anthro/socio context as a shared system of beliefs, ideas, and behaviors between a group of people.
Studying and observing an artifact or "cultural object" is a way for us in the present to catch a fleeting glimpse into a departed world. It lets us briefly share some fragment of culture with those who have passed. It stands to reason that this phenomenon is the motivation behind many of our interests in anthropology and archeology to begin with.
The only way for the "culture" of which so many previous posters have spoken to live on is for these "cultural artifacts" to come into contact with real people who appreciate them.
Without people, these "cultural objects" amount to little more than a pile of stones.
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