Topic ID #612 - posted 3/22/2007 9:47 AM
KidCharlemagne
Let's discuss fair compensation and CRM.
KidCharlemagne
edit
Post ID#1182 - replied 3/22/2007 4:59 PM
Dmack89
you present a number of good ideas to consider - perhpas the most relevant in my experience has been that even when an employer wants to raise what they pay, they find it difficult due to the lowballing competition. In the past I have worked for a great company, where the owner did everything she could to increase of standard of living - raising rates whenever she could, being the first private firm in the state to have health insurance for her full time employees, finding busy work even when there were no projects to be done, just to keep us on the payroll, etc. But throughout my nearly 10 years at that firm we were constantly faced with hard times, when the work would not be there, because in order to take care of the employees, we had to raise our estimates, and often lost out to the lowballers. There were even a few times when we agreed to have a pay reduction for a short period in order to get jobs in. On top of the way the employees were treated financially, we were also given the ability to do good archaeology, even if we went over the budget on occasion. All in all it was great place to work.
Another major problem you hit on is the perception of what we do as a laborer position. Unfortunately there are many firms that seem to not care about doing good work and actually do hire "laborers" rather than archaeologists. While these laborers may call themselves archaeologists, I have seen many who have no clue how to do anything beyond dig a round hole and shake a screen. Yet they affect the pool of workers and how we are percieved overall.
I have to point out that you start out with a non-sequitor - an entry level full time position. My experience has been that those two terms do not go together (kind of like Military Intelligence). Most entry positions are on a per project basis - giving the employer the opportunity to evluate your work and decide whether to hire you back or not. Unless you hook up with a good firm out of the gate, and do a darn good job, no one should expect that entry level position to be permanent - Unless you prove yourself. Nor should you expect to get good pay for it.
Another point - most entry level folks I have worked with over the years, do not have their BA/BS yet. They take a field school and find work to help get through school. If you have followed that route, by the time you have your degree, you are no longer looking for that entry level spot, because you have shown you can do the work, learned a bit more, and may even have earned some more responsibility along the way.
Something to think about - When I started out, an entry level person was paid about $35/day after a year or so if you were still there it would raise to $40/day and a crew chief may make $50/day. About 9 years later I found myself in charge of a University Survey program (PI) at $100/day (12.50/hour). If you are starting out at $12/hr now, consider yourself well paid.
With all that said, it would be nice to paid equivalent to what are classmates end up getting. We oftern work harder, longer hours, under extreme conditions, in unsafe environments -......all for less. hmmm maybe the "strong back - weak mind" label really does fit us :D
Another major problem you hit on is the perception of what we do as a laborer position. Unfortunately there are many firms that seem to not care about doing good work and actually do hire "laborers" rather than archaeologists. While these laborers may call themselves archaeologists, I have seen many who have no clue how to do anything beyond dig a round hole and shake a screen. Yet they affect the pool of workers and how we are percieved overall.
I have to point out that you start out with a non-sequitor - an entry level full time position. My experience has been that those two terms do not go together (kind of like Military Intelligence). Most entry positions are on a per project basis - giving the employer the opportunity to evluate your work and decide whether to hire you back or not. Unless you hook up with a good firm out of the gate, and do a darn good job, no one should expect that entry level position to be permanent - Unless you prove yourself. Nor should you expect to get good pay for it.
Another point - most entry level folks I have worked with over the years, do not have their BA/BS yet. They take a field school and find work to help get through school. If you have followed that route, by the time you have your degree, you are no longer looking for that entry level spot, because you have shown you can do the work, learned a bit more, and may even have earned some more responsibility along the way.
Something to think about - When I started out, an entry level person was paid about $35/day after a year or so if you were still there it would raise to $40/day and a crew chief may make $50/day. About 9 years later I found myself in charge of a University Survey program (PI) at $100/day (12.50/hour). If you are starting out at $12/hr now, consider yourself well paid.
With all that said, it would be nice to paid equivalent to what are classmates end up getting. We oftern work harder, longer hours, under extreme conditions, in unsafe environments -......all for less. hmmm maybe the "strong back - weak mind" label really does fit us :D
Post ID#1186 - replied 3/22/2007 9:49 PM
terrascythe
Post ID#1198 - replied 3/23/2007 1:16 PM
Ziggy
Terrascythe, you experience with co-workers astounds me. "many archaeologists have lonely lives with failed relationships and substance abuse problems, or they're total archaeo-frauds. Because they get stuck in a comfort zone of going from project to project and then collecting unemployment." I'm not in the least offended/insulted by those comments, but it sure makes me wonder who you work with, because I certainly haven't met these people. The quality of character of the shovel bums I have worked with is high, after ten years bumming myself I know them as happy,educated wokers with lively social lives, happy marriages, and healthy beer-habits. Perhaps I've been lucky.
Post ID#1200 - replied 3/23/2007 2:17 PM
99thpercentile
As someone who who would love to do archaeology, but can't afford to I would love to comment to this post. The average salaries that were quoted by the OP may not be as revealing as they could be. A much more meaningful number would be the median salary. Averages are skewed by extremes. Another issue to address here is that higher paying jobs in general are revenue producers. Archaeology isn't a revenue producing field, many companies consider it a drain on their resources. It is in most cases mandated by law.
I will give examples from my own field which is geophysics. My background is that I have a BS in engineering physics and a MS in geophysical engineering. I am an engineering in training as well as a geologist in training and should pass my civil engineering PE exam and registered professional geologist exams in the fall. I work for the US Army Corps of Engineers as a research geophysicist looking for landmines, unexploded ordnance, drug tunnels, failure zones in levees, etc..
In my field the highest paying jobs are in the oil industry, this is because they are revenue producing jobs. The next highest would be in the mining industry for the same reason. The pay drops drastically when you start to look at the environmental geophysics fields (which could probably include archaeology). The reason is that these jobs are government mandated. Locating contaminant spills, cleaning up landmines or UXO or other related jobs don't add revenue to companies. Most of the costs for these jobs are passed back to you in the form of higher taxes.
I'm not saying that this compensation system is right or just, I'm just saying that this is how the system works. If you don't mind passing your increased salary onto the US tax burden, then get all of the archaeologists out there to form a union or to lobby their representatives to put minimum wage clauses into the federal regulations that govern archaeology. I'm not sure what the particular regulations are, but you should be able to find them.
This is just my two cents.
Ryan
I will give examples from my own field which is geophysics. My background is that I have a BS in engineering physics and a MS in geophysical engineering. I am an engineering in training as well as a geologist in training and should pass my civil engineering PE exam and registered professional geologist exams in the fall. I work for the US Army Corps of Engineers as a research geophysicist looking for landmines, unexploded ordnance, drug tunnels, failure zones in levees, etc..
In my field the highest paying jobs are in the oil industry, this is because they are revenue producing jobs. The next highest would be in the mining industry for the same reason. The pay drops drastically when you start to look at the environmental geophysics fields (which could probably include archaeology). The reason is that these jobs are government mandated. Locating contaminant spills, cleaning up landmines or UXO or other related jobs don't add revenue to companies. Most of the costs for these jobs are passed back to you in the form of higher taxes.
I'm not saying that this compensation system is right or just, I'm just saying that this is how the system works. If you don't mind passing your increased salary onto the US tax burden, then get all of the archaeologists out there to form a union or to lobby their representatives to put minimum wage clauses into the federal regulations that govern archaeology. I'm not sure what the particular regulations are, but you should be able to find them.
This is just my two cents.
Ryan
Post ID#1202 - replied 3/23/2007 3:10 PM
waverave67
Alot of people do it because they love it, not for the money, if you are here for money then you have the wrong attitude. If you are in CRM thinking you are going to save the environment that's bogus, you are not there to preserve the forest, alot of it is getting ripped down asap. Sure not all of it gets destroyed but alot of it does. One of the bigger problems is health insurance, it's a pretty demanding job and for people who are not covered that poses a substantial financial burden. If companies are going to chew field techs up and spit them out the least they can do is provide some sort of health care, even if it is like Dwight's horrible plan from the "Office".
Post ID#1203 - replied 3/23/2007 3:15 PM
dirtdiva
Ryan,
The work has already been done, complements of the United Archaeological Field Technicians Union. A little out of date maybe, but there is a three tier prevailing wage standard already set by the Divison of Labor - Employee Standards Administration.
http://members.aol.com/UAFT/sca2000.htm
The work has already been done, complements of the United Archaeological Field Technicians Union. A little out of date maybe, but there is a three tier prevailing wage standard already set by the Divison of Labor - Employee Standards Administration.
http://members.aol.com/UAFT/sca2000.htm
Post ID#1206 - replied 3/23/2007 4:09 PM
prisoner
[quote:="99thpercentile"]Another issue to address here is that higher paying jobs in general are revenue producers. Archaeology isn't a revenue producing field, many companies consider it a drain on their resources. It is in most cases mandated by law.
This is a big part of it. Most of the CRM in this country is done in the private sector. Private developers contracting with private CRM firms to do the work. Even in the case of highway projects, especially new ones, most of the work is being conducted by private developers that are subcontracting the CRM services. The requirements to do this work is not welcome by developers and the firms operating in CRM are highly competitive. Add to that, the line item for CRM in a private development is miniscule compared to the other items they are budgeting for. All of this adds up to CRM on the cheap which trickles down to lower wages for most CRM professionals. The laws are there to require this work, but that may not always be the case, or at least they may not continue to exist at their current level of regulation.
The simple fact is, and I agree with terrascythe here, the work required of field techs is not that difficult. Not so much that it requires a four year degree and field school. The fact that companies require this is silly, but they can. There are enough newly minted BAs looking to get their feet wet that the minimum requirements can remain high.
That leads to other problem with the field tech world. Field techs are often in it for the short term. Yes a lot of people shovelbum for 10 or more years, but those people are not as common. More often than not a new graduate with a BA is looking to fill sometime between undergrad and grad school. They see the limitation of not having an MA and move towards that. The you have the folks that realize this is not their cup of tea and move out of CRM altogether. Add to that the fact that most companies need a relatively high number of field techs (relative to permanent staff) for temporary field work and when it is over they are gone. Therefore, you have companies paying low wages to field techs to reserve higher wages for permanent employees. You also have BAs willing to work for less because they are only in it temporarily while they gain experience to move onto their MA.
Essentially, starting as a field tech is not an entry level job. That term sounds like there is an opportunity to advance with a company, and that is often not the case. It is more akin to skilled labor. Much like skilled labor in other industries a few people move up to be supervisors and bunch don't. That is just the reality of this business, shovelbumming is a job not a career.
This is a big part of it. Most of the CRM in this country is done in the private sector. Private developers contracting with private CRM firms to do the work. Even in the case of highway projects, especially new ones, most of the work is being conducted by private developers that are subcontracting the CRM services. The requirements to do this work is not welcome by developers and the firms operating in CRM are highly competitive. Add to that, the line item for CRM in a private development is miniscule compared to the other items they are budgeting for. All of this adds up to CRM on the cheap which trickles down to lower wages for most CRM professionals. The laws are there to require this work, but that may not always be the case, or at least they may not continue to exist at their current level of regulation.
The simple fact is, and I agree with terrascythe here, the work required of field techs is not that difficult. Not so much that it requires a four year degree and field school. The fact that companies require this is silly, but they can. There are enough newly minted BAs looking to get their feet wet that the minimum requirements can remain high.
That leads to other problem with the field tech world. Field techs are often in it for the short term. Yes a lot of people shovelbum for 10 or more years, but those people are not as common. More often than not a new graduate with a BA is looking to fill sometime between undergrad and grad school. They see the limitation of not having an MA and move towards that. The you have the folks that realize this is not their cup of tea and move out of CRM altogether. Add to that the fact that most companies need a relatively high number of field techs (relative to permanent staff) for temporary field work and when it is over they are gone. Therefore, you have companies paying low wages to field techs to reserve higher wages for permanent employees. You also have BAs willing to work for less because they are only in it temporarily while they gain experience to move onto their MA.
Essentially, starting as a field tech is not an entry level job. That term sounds like there is an opportunity to advance with a company, and that is often not the case. It is more akin to skilled labor. Much like skilled labor in other industries a few people move up to be supervisors and bunch don't. That is just the reality of this business, shovelbumming is a job not a career.
Post ID#1207 - replied 3/23/2007 4:14 PM
prisoner
[quote:="waverave67"]If you are in CRM thinking you are going to save the environment that's bogus, you are not there to preserve the forest, alot of it is getting ripped down asap.
I disagree with this statement. You may not save the world in CRM but you are an active part of managing cultural resources and the effects of development on the cultural environment. I have had the opportunity to persuade clients to avoid sites, provide public education, and be proactive about archeology. I have also had the opportunity to witness the destruction of numerous sites. I am not fighting a crusade, but you are saving the environment.
I disagree with this statement. You may not save the world in CRM but you are an active part of managing cultural resources and the effects of development on the cultural environment. I have had the opportunity to persuade clients to avoid sites, provide public education, and be proactive about archeology. I have also had the opportunity to witness the destruction of numerous sites. I am not fighting a crusade, but you are saving the environment.
Post ID#1208 - replied 3/23/2007 4:41 PM
KidCharlemagne
[quote:="dirtdiva"]Ryan,
The work has already been done, complements of the United Archaeological Field Technicians Union. A little out of date maybe, but there is a three tier prevailing wage standard already set by the Divison of Labor - Employee Standards Administration.
http://members.aol.com/UAFT/sca2000.htm
The sad thing is that the figures listed on that page pretty much match what people are being paid 6+ years later. Just because we study the past doesn't mean we should be constricted by it.
The work has already been done, complements of the United Archaeological Field Technicians Union. A little out of date maybe, but there is a three tier prevailing wage standard already set by the Divison of Labor - Employee Standards Administration.
http://members.aol.com/UAFT/sca2000.htm
The sad thing is that the figures listed on that page pretty much match what people are being paid 6+ years later. Just because we study the past doesn't mean we should be constricted by it.
Post ID#1211 - replied 3/23/2007 7:06 PM
waverave67
Duly noted, I was referring to the actual environment we live in, I am aware that the cultural environment is preserved hopefully most of the time, but I have been on alot of projects where it hasn't. I live in the area where I work as opposed to doing a project and never going back, so I can't just forget about it. All of the artifacts you collect get preserved, it's just sad when you see huge swaths of trees clearcut is all. It is a good feeling when you talk to landowners or other people who happen to be interested in what you are doing, not just trying to harass you about why you are there.
Post ID#1216 - replied 3/23/2007 9:45 PM
scottyj432
I think prisoner and 99thpercentile have presented some very good insights into this discussion. The points they have raised cut to the heart of the matter.
Post ID#1232 - replied 3/26/2007 12:19 AM
waverave67
Being a tech is harder than one might think, "digging a hole" tends to get complicated, its not always a straight shot to the bottom, although many people think it is. When you can't feel your fingers and are trying to profile it gets tricky, not to mention when you are that cold it's hard to think about anything but how cold you are. It is easy to look at what someone else is doing and say it's not tough, especially when you are not doing it. Inclement weather along with stringent deadlines also play a role, things are never as simple as they appear. Sure alot of the tasks techs do are not all that hard, but it's surprising how many people can't or won't do the job well. If people working at Starbucks can get health insurance why can't CRM start? It is not hard to give the options to employees, it seems like people just don't want to do it. The health hazards faced in the field tend to be more than spilling a hot beverage on yourself.
Post ID#1233 - replied 3/26/2007 4:52 AM
BAJR
P-III Associates
Pay scale starts at $1950/month. All positions include paid holidays and other standard benefits. These positions also include additional health and welfare compensation. Transportation to and from job locations is provided from Salt Lake City. Meal reimbursement and lodging are provided on workdays.
BAJR thoughts ..Pretty low… … Lodging, holiday and welfare and being taken to site are rights not perks.
CCRG's Jackson
Hourly rate for experienced field techs is $13.00 per hour.
Housing will consist of single occupancy motel rooms. We will cover motel rooms on weekends for those who live a distance from the project area. Per diem stipend $30.00 per work day will be provided up front at the beginning of each week. No receipts are required for spent per diem.
BAJR thoughts ..Pretty low… … at least they pay for accommodation in a motel over weekend… but any other perks?.
PB (Parsons Brinckerhoff)
Requirements include a degree in Anthropology/Archaeology or a related field with a field school; one or more years of CRM experience is preferable. Wage rates for technicians are $11-$13/hour dependent on experience. Wage rates for field directors are $15-$20/hour dependent on experience. Work weeks will be Monday through Friday, eight hours a day. Some weekend excavation is possible.
BAJR thoughts ..Very low… … For what is required you don’t want much and do you get overtime (at time and a half or double time) for weekend work? Accommodation? Transport?
I note that they can provide something – but why does it sound like a perk?:
PB America offers a competitive pay and benefits package, including paid
sick/vacation time, 10 paid holidays, medical and life insurance.
10 paid holidays?? Blimey in UK – have just managed to push for 20 + 7 statutory public holidays.
Massachusetts Archaeological Professionals
Looking to start mid/end of April, dependent upon weather and field
conditions, and lasting a minimum of 3-4 months. Pay rate of
$10.00/hr and up dependant upon experience. No per diem, travel or
lodging.
BAJR thoughts ..this is my favourite (joke)… ! 10 bucks with no travel, lodging or anything… do you sleep in the trench? At those wages.. you might have to.
AS has been said many times… I though the UK was bad… but boy you got it tough. Most of the adverts I looked at would either just scape into a lowest job category or not make it at all. We are professionals.. we need to be treated like professionals
David Connolly
British Archaeological Jobs Resource
BAJR - www.bajr.org
Traprain House
Luggate Burn
Whittingehame
East Lothian
EH41 4QA
T: 01620 861643
M 0787 6528 498
E info@bajr.org
Archaeology for All!
Pay scale starts at $1950/month. All positions include paid holidays and other standard benefits. These positions also include additional health and welfare compensation. Transportation to and from job locations is provided from Salt Lake City. Meal reimbursement and lodging are provided on workdays.
BAJR thoughts ..Pretty low… … Lodging, holiday and welfare and being taken to site are rights not perks.
CCRG's Jackson
Hourly rate for experienced field techs is $13.00 per hour.
Housing will consist of single occupancy motel rooms. We will cover motel rooms on weekends for those who live a distance from the project area. Per diem stipend $30.00 per work day will be provided up front at the beginning of each week. No receipts are required for spent per diem.
BAJR thoughts ..Pretty low… … at least they pay for accommodation in a motel over weekend… but any other perks?.
PB (Parsons Brinckerhoff)
Requirements include a degree in Anthropology/Archaeology or a related field with a field school; one or more years of CRM experience is preferable. Wage rates for technicians are $11-$13/hour dependent on experience. Wage rates for field directors are $15-$20/hour dependent on experience. Work weeks will be Monday through Friday, eight hours a day. Some weekend excavation is possible.
BAJR thoughts ..Very low… … For what is required you don’t want much and do you get overtime (at time and a half or double time) for weekend work? Accommodation? Transport?
I note that they can provide something – but why does it sound like a perk?:
PB America offers a competitive pay and benefits package, including paid
sick/vacation time, 10 paid holidays, medical and life insurance.
10 paid holidays?? Blimey in UK – have just managed to push for 20 + 7 statutory public holidays.
Massachusetts Archaeological Professionals
Looking to start mid/end of April, dependent upon weather and field
conditions, and lasting a minimum of 3-4 months. Pay rate of
$10.00/hr and up dependant upon experience. No per diem, travel or
lodging.
BAJR thoughts ..this is my favourite (joke)… ! 10 bucks with no travel, lodging or anything… do you sleep in the trench? At those wages.. you might have to.
AS has been said many times… I though the UK was bad… but boy you got it tough. Most of the adverts I looked at would either just scape into a lowest job category or not make it at all. We are professionals.. we need to be treated like professionals
David Connolly
British Archaeological Jobs Resource
BAJR - www.bajr.org
Traprain House
Luggate Burn
Whittingehame
East Lothian
EH41 4QA
T: 01620 861643
M 0787 6528 498
E info@bajr.org
Archaeology for All!
Post ID#1234 - replied 3/26/2007 5:43 AM
archgis
I just thought this would fit well into this conversation of how poorly archaeologists get paid for what we do.
Cut and Pasted from the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics website (construction laborers, web page)
"Median hourly earnings of construction laborers in May 2004 were $12.10. The middle 50 percent earned between $9.47 and $16.88. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $7.71, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $23.61. Median hourly earnings in the industries employing the largest number of construction laborers in May 2004 were as follows:"
It seems that sometimes it might just be cheaper to hire an archaeologist to dig then a construction laborer
Cut and Pasted from the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics website (construction laborers, web page)
"Median hourly earnings of construction laborers in May 2004 were $12.10. The middle 50 percent earned between $9.47 and $16.88. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $7.71, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $23.61. Median hourly earnings in the industries employing the largest number of construction laborers in May 2004 were as follows:"
It seems that sometimes it might just be cheaper to hire an archaeologist to dig then a construction laborer
Post ID#1236 - replied 3/26/2007 6:37 AM
BAJR
from teh BAJR Forum:
The situation is comparable if not worse in Germany.
Contract archaeology here is a comparatively recent phenomenon and therefore there is no standard in terms of pay or conditions across the board, although the situatio differs from federal state to state and in how far the local/ state authorities care about site workers.
Recent exampls include either 10 Euros per hour on payroll (site assistant). A supervisor (wiss. Mitarbeiter) is advertised for 12.50 Euros/ hour self-employed, which after tax and insurance can work out far less then the 10 Euros a site assistant gets. Project officers can expect a whooping 16 Euros/ hour on an eight weeks contract...
I also recently saw one advert for site assistants for 5 Euros/ hour...
Many excavations also like to employ students as site assistants who are only allowed (for tax reasons) to work a maximum of 20 hours a week, which means that one might end up working with a different team of site assistants every day of the week.
But hey, since these folks are only there to shovel and pickaxe and are not allowed to do any recording whatsoever I guess it is assumed that its 'ok'...
This looos like we have a global problem - so what is the answer?
The situation is comparable if not worse in Germany.
Contract archaeology here is a comparatively recent phenomenon and therefore there is no standard in terms of pay or conditions across the board, although the situatio differs from federal state to state and in how far the local/ state authorities care about site workers.
Recent exampls include either 10 Euros per hour on payroll (site assistant). A supervisor (wiss. Mitarbeiter) is advertised for 12.50 Euros/ hour self-employed, which after tax and insurance can work out far less then the 10 Euros a site assistant gets. Project officers can expect a whooping 16 Euros/ hour on an eight weeks contract...
I also recently saw one advert for site assistants for 5 Euros/ hour...
Many excavations also like to employ students as site assistants who are only allowed (for tax reasons) to work a maximum of 20 hours a week, which means that one might end up working with a different team of site assistants every day of the week.
But hey, since these folks are only there to shovel and pickaxe and are not allowed to do any recording whatsoever I guess it is assumed that its 'ok'...
This looos like we have a global problem - so what is the answer?
Post ID#1239 - replied 3/26/2007 7:15 AM
Jennifer Palmer
Webmaster
David, you bring up some good points, and what is offered does vary by company, sometimes considerably so. In my experience, I have found that very few firms will pay for weekend lodging, unless it is a long-term, usually larger budget project (such as one I worked on a few years ago that was nearly a year in length, and at that point they paid for the hotel by the month).
Accomodations were also discussed in another thread on the forums. In doing archaeology for 13 years in the U.S., I have found that the vast majority of companies I have worked for have supplied shared rooms. Yes, you had to share a room with what was often a complete stranger. If you were the odd male or female on the crew, you got your own room by chance, but firms would go out of their way to make sure a crew was even so they didn't have to have a single room. Sometimes crew chiefs or field directors were also made to share a room with one of their crew, which sometimes made for an awkward situation (nothing like having to live with your boss after hours). The practice of sharing rooms in CRM is one of my biggest complaints. Anyone who has worked for more than a few years probably has their own hotel horror stories about having to share a room with a co-worker.
I have seen the hotel situation improve slightly over the years. When I first began in CRM, I was often put up in horrible flea bag hotels... the cheapest that could be found in a given area... When I worked as a crew chief and had some control over the situation, I would lobby for better accomodations, and we stayed in halfway decent hotels. However, I can still count on one hand the companies I worked for whose policy it was to provide single rooms for their crews. The same goes for firms which offered real benefits for employees. These were the exception and not the norm. What is your experience in the UK? Do most firms offer single rooms, and benefits? What about per diem?
Jennifer
Accomodations were also discussed in another thread on the forums. In doing archaeology for 13 years in the U.S., I have found that the vast majority of companies I have worked for have supplied shared rooms. Yes, you had to share a room with what was often a complete stranger. If you were the odd male or female on the crew, you got your own room by chance, but firms would go out of their way to make sure a crew was even so they didn't have to have a single room. Sometimes crew chiefs or field directors were also made to share a room with one of their crew, which sometimes made for an awkward situation (nothing like having to live with your boss after hours). The practice of sharing rooms in CRM is one of my biggest complaints. Anyone who has worked for more than a few years probably has their own hotel horror stories about having to share a room with a co-worker.
I have seen the hotel situation improve slightly over the years. When I first began in CRM, I was often put up in horrible flea bag hotels... the cheapest that could be found in a given area... When I worked as a crew chief and had some control over the situation, I would lobby for better accomodations, and we stayed in halfway decent hotels. However, I can still count on one hand the companies I worked for whose policy it was to provide single rooms for their crews. The same goes for firms which offered real benefits for employees. These were the exception and not the norm. What is your experience in the UK? Do most firms offer single rooms, and benefits? What about per diem?
Jennifer
Post ID#1246 - replied 3/26/2007 11:51 AM
Dmack89
Wow,
I just looked back after a few days away - the part of this disucssion that really caught my attention (and I am surprised no one else jumped on it) was the idea that being a field tech is an easy job.
Sure I have seen plenty of folk that just dig holes and count items (hopefully they at least found what was there to be seen) - but people like that never ended up working for me for very long.
The field tech is the backbone of archaoelogy - the one that really has to know how to do field work -and well. The PI, PD, crew chief - all have important jobs in pulling all the data together, writing it up in a coherent fashion, dealing with all the SOBs that think archaeology is a nuisance, etc. but if the field techs don't give them good info, ....hey BS in BS out.
I would never argue that one needs a 4 year degree to be a good field tech. I would rather see a HS degree with 4 years of good field experience and a real understanding of what they are doing, why context is important, how to identify it, what soil variation might mean, what different smells in the soil suggest, etc. There is a LOT more to being a good field tech, even an entry level one, than terrascythe seems to understand. I have often found his/her comments to be insightful, but on this one the mark was missed.
as a smile for the day, always keep in mind what degrees really mean:
BS = Bull Shi*
MS = More Shi*
PhD = Piled Higher and Deeper
DM
I just looked back after a few days away - the part of this disucssion that really caught my attention (and I am surprised no one else jumped on it) was the idea that being a field tech is an easy job.
Sure I have seen plenty of folk that just dig holes and count items (hopefully they at least found what was there to be seen) - but people like that never ended up working for me for very long.
The field tech is the backbone of archaoelogy - the one that really has to know how to do field work -and well. The PI, PD, crew chief - all have important jobs in pulling all the data together, writing it up in a coherent fashion, dealing with all the SOBs that think archaeology is a nuisance, etc. but if the field techs don't give them good info, ....hey BS in BS out.
I would never argue that one needs a 4 year degree to be a good field tech. I would rather see a HS degree with 4 years of good field experience and a real understanding of what they are doing, why context is important, how to identify it, what soil variation might mean, what different smells in the soil suggest, etc. There is a LOT more to being a good field tech, even an entry level one, than terrascythe seems to understand. I have often found his/her comments to be insightful, but on this one the mark was missed.
as a smile for the day, always keep in mind what degrees really mean:
BS = Bull Shi*
MS = More Shi*
PhD = Piled Higher and Deeper
DM
Post ID#1247 - replied 3/26/2007 12:19 PM
Jennifer Palmer
Webmaster
Very true. Anyone who has been saddled with an entire crew of green field techs knows how much experience can mean in the field. And it is true that holding a degree doesn't always equate to competence in the field. It wasn't long ago that I was working with an MA holder that was consistently bagging pieces of wood as bone and every rock she found in the screen, and still didn't have a grasp of even the basics (and this person left our company for an upper-level supervisory position at another firm).
Jennifer
Jennifer
Post ID#1254 - replied 3/26/2007 4:14 PM
Pittsburger
First of all, I have to say I take offense at those who think that “anybody can dig a hole.” Let me clarify. Can just anyone dig a hole? Yes, probably. Can just anyone excavate shovel tests or test units? No. Or at least, not without screwing up the data, it has been my observation. I will agree, however, that level of education does not equal competency. I’ve worked with field techs who could run circles around the crew chief or field director. I consider myself very lucky to have worked with those people, even-to a point- the bad, as I learned how NOT to do things. (And why does it seem that the worse the supervisor, the less likely they are to take suggestions. Is it because they can recognize their own incompetence?) Perhaps it should be required that one have practical field experience (outside of the field school realm, whether they were the student or the supervisor) before one can land a job directing surveys and evaluations or, while I’m at it, be deemed qualified to review reports. I like to think that if excellence (or at least moderate compentence) is demanded, that a wages would be raised. Or perhaps I’m just living in a dream world.
Post ID#1256 - replied 3/26/2007 5:46 PM
BAJR
A more normal deal in the UK depends on the type of accomodation (which is kind of standard(ish) now when working away from home) - Bed and breakfast - a bit like your motels - is paid for plus 10 - 30 pounds a day for food.. as you will have to eat out for dinner.
Self catering is free but you provide your own food (as if you were at home really)
in some cases.. a yurt camp has been set up to follow a pipeline. bless!
Giving people space is only fair... and only sometimes will peopel share rooms.. it is rare to be put with people you don't know. But then living in barracks has stopped now.. and thank god that we don't sleep on the streets any more (I used to sleep in doorways and under bridges to save money - about 25 years ago!)
Now I won't allow adverts that don't provide holiday pay, sickness and for some longer contracts - pension rights. I also check on conditions and what exactly is offered. It ain't easy - as I am jsut one person .. but it can work.
You may like to read the new BAJR Pay and Conditions for 2007 - 2008. which seems to have been adopteed with a lot less fuss than I thought.
http://www.bajr.org/documents/payconditions07_08.pdf
This has not been easy and it is jsut getting harder... but believe it or not... thanks to a lot of people and a lot of moral high ground.. I do believe we are getting there. :?
Self catering is free but you provide your own food (as if you were at home really)
in some cases.. a yurt camp has been set up to follow a pipeline. bless!
Giving people space is only fair... and only sometimes will peopel share rooms.. it is rare to be put with people you don't know. But then living in barracks has stopped now.. and thank god that we don't sleep on the streets any more (I used to sleep in doorways and under bridges to save money - about 25 years ago!)
Now I won't allow adverts that don't provide holiday pay, sickness and for some longer contracts - pension rights. I also check on conditions and what exactly is offered. It ain't easy - as I am jsut one person .. but it can work.
You may like to read the new BAJR Pay and Conditions for 2007 - 2008. which seems to have been adopteed with a lot less fuss than I thought.
http://www.bajr.org/documents/payconditions07_08.pdf
This has not been easy and it is jsut getting harder... but believe it or not... thanks to a lot of people and a lot of moral high ground.. I do believe we are getting there. :?
Post ID#1257 - replied 3/26/2007 6:11 PM
scottyj432
I think the major driving force in raising wages for archs, as it stands now in this country, is competition in the market place. In those regions of the country experiencing a growth in certain development fields, such as energy, there has been a surge in competition among CRM companies as they compete for archs and as a result there has been a slight increase in the wages being offered. However, in some regions there seems to be more than enough archs to meet the market demands for jobs and the wages then remain stagnant in those areas.
Perhaps government mandates can increase our wages but I do not predict that is something we will see anytime soon.
That being said, as long as there continues to be an influx every year into the job market of recent grads with little experience and who are willing to take any job despite the pay, then their very presence in the job market will continue to keep wages low.
Finally, as has been pointed out in a previous post, the fact of the matter is that this is not a revenue producing field and wages will never rival those of a geologist, an electrical engineer, etc. And this is true with other fields as well.
Archs are not the only under paid professionals out there. I have worked with biologists on several projects and all of them were paid less money than the arch field techs. In many parts of the region in which I work, our field techs are paid more money than the local school teachers in those areas are paid. While those teachers do get benefits, they still have to pay housing and all of the other living expenses. I do not know how they manage it.
The point is, low wage rates are not exclusive to this profession; many others suffer as well. It is not right, but it is a reality.
Perhaps government mandates can increase our wages but I do not predict that is something we will see anytime soon.
That being said, as long as there continues to be an influx every year into the job market of recent grads with little experience and who are willing to take any job despite the pay, then their very presence in the job market will continue to keep wages low.
Finally, as has been pointed out in a previous post, the fact of the matter is that this is not a revenue producing field and wages will never rival those of a geologist, an electrical engineer, etc. And this is true with other fields as well.
Archs are not the only under paid professionals out there. I have worked with biologists on several projects and all of them were paid less money than the arch field techs. In many parts of the region in which I work, our field techs are paid more money than the local school teachers in those areas are paid. While those teachers do get benefits, they still have to pay housing and all of the other living expenses. I do not know how they manage it.
The point is, low wage rates are not exclusive to this profession; many others suffer as well. It is not right, but it is a reality.
Post ID#1262 - replied 3/27/2007 6:30 AM
BAJR
That being said, as long as there continues to be an influx every year into the job market of recent grads with little experience and who are willing to take any job despite the pay, then their very presence in the job market will continue to keep wages low.
My suggestion is to get to thoses students and explain how they sow their own downfall, cos after 5 years digging they will not be so keen as they were when they took that first job for $10 an hour - realisign that becuase they did.. the wages will never go up.
Finally, as has been pointed out in a previous post, the fact of the matter is that this is not a revenue producing field and wages will never rival those of a geologist, an electrical engineer, etc. And this is true with other fields as well.
This can be a major mistake.. something we have wrestled with in teh UK and Ireland for years.. after much research you have to see that Archaeology produces several tangible and some non tangible services and products.
1) Heritage industry - worth over 1 billion pounds a year in the UK
2) Geotechnical work in advance of construction
3) Architectural work on historic buildings
4) Good Publicity generation for clients by association
5) Local communities actualy feel better about a place if they feel it is special enough to have archaeologists there.
6) leading to community projects and education projects which impact upon the public.
Either you are a professional and are treated as such and expect to be treated as such or you are a shovelbum who knows its not good... but hey what can I do.. I have heard it all before from the uk archaeologists, I have heard the arguements about nurses getting paid the same as us.. so we could not possibly increase .. e tc... everyone else is poorly paid... etc etc. Well I don't agree with nurses and teachers getting paid crap... but that does not stop me from pushing and fighting for my own profession...
If people don't want a liveable wage based upon the study and expereince they haev built up.. then fine.. No mortgage, a cheap car, and a bag that you take around from motel to motel... is that it?? Or are you worth more.. and prepared to make it happen?
It can be done.... it has been done...
My suggestion is to get to thoses students and explain how they sow their own downfall, cos after 5 years digging they will not be so keen as they were when they took that first job for $10 an hour - realisign that becuase they did.. the wages will never go up.
Finally, as has been pointed out in a previous post, the fact of the matter is that this is not a revenue producing field and wages will never rival those of a geologist, an electrical engineer, etc. And this is true with other fields as well.
This can be a major mistake.. something we have wrestled with in teh UK and Ireland for years.. after much research you have to see that Archaeology produces several tangible and some non tangible services and products.
1) Heritage industry - worth over 1 billion pounds a year in the UK
2) Geotechnical work in advance of construction
3) Architectural work on historic buildings
4) Good Publicity generation for clients by association
5) Local communities actualy feel better about a place if they feel it is special enough to have archaeologists there.
6) leading to community projects and education projects which impact upon the public.
Either you are a professional and are treated as such and expect to be treated as such or you are a shovelbum who knows its not good... but hey what can I do.. I have heard it all before from the uk archaeologists, I have heard the arguements about nurses getting paid the same as us.. so we could not possibly increase .. e tc... everyone else is poorly paid... etc etc. Well I don't agree with nurses and teachers getting paid crap... but that does not stop me from pushing and fighting for my own profession...
If people don't want a liveable wage based upon the study and expereince they haev built up.. then fine.. No mortgage, a cheap car, and a bag that you take around from motel to motel... is that it?? Or are you worth more.. and prepared to make it happen?
It can be done.... it has been done...
Post ID#1269 - replied 3/27/2007 10:22 AM
rkeyo
Moderator
BAJR's list of postives that can be derived from archaeological compliance projects is right on the money. However, few companies (read: managers), either in development or CRM, appear to have the vision or flexibility to grasp the value of pursuing these "out of the box" approaches. On the other hand, if I were a younger person than I am, with 20 years of work still ahead of me, I would start a company that offered ever so much more than just bare-bones compliance, and get filthy rich in the process. As I learned during the course of getting my master's from Leicester University, the UK and Europe are years ahead of us in the creation of a heritage industry, dedicated to preservation, public education, recreation, and (oh horrors!) profit. If approached in an ethical, professional, politically savvy way, preservation/development projects aimed at interpretaion at a variety of levels, have the potential to change the face of CRM in the US in a way that creates win-win-win-win situations that most folks haven't even dreamed of. And this includes raising the respect due to CRM professionals, and thus, laying the groundwork for a betterment of conditions in all areas of our, currently, spotty existance. 8-)
Post ID#1273 - replied 3/27/2007 3:34 PM
BAJR
You said it rkeyo.
though have to confess we are still battling... who knows... by the time you read this.. another County Curator will be made redundant and 30 more staff laid off at museums and heritage projects.
Though that said... it is becoming a political issue, and in my county (where I am the County archaeologist) I have manaegd to create a group called Midlothian Heritage where council members are falling over themselves to be involved in! Looks good and may win votes...
WE LUV HERITAGE seems to be working a bit....
A recent developer, I ahev convinced to keep a 16th century Mill that sits on 5 of his 125 unit development plots... (unbelievable, someone in the 19th century had buried it up to the top of the roof!! - so that makes sense of the big mound in the middle of the site!) Add 5k to each house... Do up the Mill as a public ammenity at 150-200k and he actually makes money, looks good to the local people and has an amazing focus/heart to a pretty ugly development! Some people have to see money - and then will pay for archaeology as a brilliant thing rather than another tax that they would rather went away.
though have to confess we are still battling... who knows... by the time you read this.. another County Curator will be made redundant and 30 more staff laid off at museums and heritage projects.
Though that said... it is becoming a political issue, and in my county (where I am the County archaeologist) I have manaegd to create a group called Midlothian Heritage where council members are falling over themselves to be involved in! Looks good and may win votes...
WE LUV HERITAGE seems to be working a bit....
A recent developer, I ahev convinced to keep a 16th century Mill that sits on 5 of his 125 unit development plots... (unbelievable, someone in the 19th century had buried it up to the top of the roof!! - so that makes sense of the big mound in the middle of the site!) Add 5k to each house... Do up the Mill as a public ammenity at 150-200k and he actually makes money, looks good to the local people and has an amazing focus/heart to a pretty ugly development! Some people have to see money - and then will pay for archaeology as a brilliant thing rather than another tax that they would rather went away.
Post ID#1274 - replied 3/27/2007 5:16 PM
waverave67
I didn't jump on the field tech jab (pg 1), I guess I hopped. Didn't really feel the need to go crazy about something that is pretty much known by all. I hear you on the backbone thing Dmack, I actually worked with a guy who worked with a guy who blew his back out. He had like three surgeries and was still messed up.
Post ID#1300 - replied 3/28/2007 2:42 PM
Dmack89
[quote:="Pittsburger"](And why does it seem that the worse the supervisor, the less likely they are to take suggestions. Is it because they can recognize their own incompetence?)
Pittsburger - more likely it's because they feel threatened - although I have come to realize that many of these types of folks do not even realize that they are incompetent - after all, if they did, they would be able to do something about it.
Pittsburger - more likely it's because they feel threatened - although I have come to realize that many of these types of folks do not even realize that they are incompetent - after all, if they did, they would be able to do something about it.
Post ID#1306 - replied 3/28/2007 4:32 PM
Maggie
Can I ask a question...
What do you think is a fair wage for the following posts?
up to 6 months exp. Shovelbum?
6month to a year?
over 2 years?
A supervisor
A site Director?
A specialist such as a surveyor, ilustrator or finds person?
a) junior
b) senior
AND
what is a fair...
holiday rate
sickness rate
accomodation
travel
What do you think is a fair wage for the following posts?
up to 6 months exp. Shovelbum?
6month to a year?
over 2 years?
A supervisor
A site Director?
A specialist such as a surveyor, ilustrator or finds person?
a) junior
b) senior
AND
what is a fair...
holiday rate
sickness rate
accomodation
travel
Post ID#1344 - replied 3/30/2007 9:52 AM
KidCharlemagne
[quote:="Maggie"]What do you think is a fair wage for the following posts?
up to 6 months exp. Shovelbum?
6month to a year?
over 2 years?
A supervisor
A site Director?
A specialist such as a surveyor, ilustrator or finds person?
a) junior
b) senior
As far as fair rates for various levels of tech and supervisor, I think that the prevailing wage jobs sometimes advertised (and highly desired) typically can be considered fair.
Remember, no one's going to get rich doing archaeology, nor do I believe that should be the goal. But people should be able to expect to make a fair wage for their work, and perhaps have the option of even starting to save money.
It's not good to have a labor force that mostly lives paycheck to paycheck. That just means more costs to the taxpayer (and to the employer who only sees the short-term benefit of paying employees less) down the line.
what is a fair...
holiday rate
sickness rate
accomodation
travel
Holiday and sick pay go more to full-time people than most shovelbums, but I believe that those CRM firms that offer their full-time employees holiday or sick pay do it at a competitive rate. Shovelbums are not owed either of these.
Regarding accommodations, I agree with Jennifer and others who have suggested that single-occupancy rooms should be industry standard, not the exception. In situations in which the firm has rented a block of rooms (in other words, making the archaeologists' residential choice for them), no employee should be forced to share a room with another person.
If a company is providing cash per diem, and techs wish to double up in order to save more money, that's their prerogative. But without having evaluated another person's personality, behavior, and level of, well, sanity, people should not force roommate situations on employees.
This brings me to a question I have for you guys: per diem.
As someone who has been fortunate enough not to work a job that used "receipts only" per diem reimbursement, I can't speak personally to the situation. But, do you guys believe that the "receipts" method of per diem is, or ever has been, justifiable?
In my view, per diem is the one thing that has allowed an awful lot of people to make any headway on any sort of savings or emergency fund.
up to 6 months exp. Shovelbum?
6month to a year?
over 2 years?
A supervisor
A site Director?
A specialist such as a surveyor, ilustrator or finds person?
a) junior
b) senior
As far as fair rates for various levels of tech and supervisor, I think that the prevailing wage jobs sometimes advertised (and highly desired) typically can be considered fair.
Remember, no one's going to get rich doing archaeology, nor do I believe that should be the goal. But people should be able to expect to make a fair wage for their work, and perhaps have the option of even starting to save money.
It's not good to have a labor force that mostly lives paycheck to paycheck. That just means more costs to the taxpayer (and to the employer who only sees the short-term benefit of paying employees less) down the line.
what is a fair...
holiday rate
sickness rate
accomodation
travel
Holiday and sick pay go more to full-time people than most shovelbums, but I believe that those CRM firms that offer their full-time employees holiday or sick pay do it at a competitive rate. Shovelbums are not owed either of these.
Regarding accommodations, I agree with Jennifer and others who have suggested that single-occupancy rooms should be industry standard, not the exception. In situations in which the firm has rented a block of rooms (in other words, making the archaeologists' residential choice for them), no employee should be forced to share a room with another person.
If a company is providing cash per diem, and techs wish to double up in order to save more money, that's their prerogative. But without having evaluated another person's personality, behavior, and level of, well, sanity, people should not force roommate situations on employees.
This brings me to a question I have for you guys: per diem.
As someone who has been fortunate enough not to work a job that used "receipts only" per diem reimbursement, I can't speak personally to the situation. But, do you guys believe that the "receipts" method of per diem is, or ever has been, justifiable?
In my view, per diem is the one thing that has allowed an awful lot of people to make any headway on any sort of savings or emergency fund.
Post ID#1347 - replied 3/30/2007 11:39 AM
prisoner
Well the reality of per diem is that it is intended to cover meals and expenses that you incur by being away from home, not as extra cash. Now per diem jobs are nice, but I won't begrudge a company that itemizes expenses with receipts. Personally, I think it is just easier to give per diem rather than expect crew to fill out vouchers and provide receipts for expenses. And, it is a nice little extra whether they use all the money or not. At some companies, itemizing expenses can be nice if they are not too strict on how much you spend. I worked for a company that basically said that $25/day was a guide for meals and then gave us examples of the kinds of places they expected us to eat at, which were usually better than fast food.
At my current company it has more to do with our clients than anything. We prefer to give flat per diem between $25 and $36 depending on the client and also pay for the hotel. We always provide single rooms, no roommates for employees. I think the roommate issue is one that strikes directly at the professionalism of our field. If you expect professional work from techs, then treat them professionally. Of course the same goes for techs, if you want to be treated professionally, then act accordingly. That means single occupancy rooms. I was always fortunate to have great roommates on projects where I had to share a room and it actually made the whole experience a lot more fun, but overall this practice should be abolished.
As far as justifying receipts for expenses, that all boils down to how a business does its accounting. No matter your opinion on the matter, companies get set in their ways, however archaic they may be. Then you have clients that require this and a lot of times it has nothing to do with archeology, but is a practice more suited for the predominant professions in that group. Like my last company, the vast majority of employees were engineers that didn't have many extended field assignments, so receipts were fine. We used to go round and round with the accounting department about getting flat per diem for temporary crew because the idea was not the standard.
At my current company it has more to do with our clients than anything. We prefer to give flat per diem between $25 and $36 depending on the client and also pay for the hotel. We always provide single rooms, no roommates for employees. I think the roommate issue is one that strikes directly at the professionalism of our field. If you expect professional work from techs, then treat them professionally. Of course the same goes for techs, if you want to be treated professionally, then act accordingly. That means single occupancy rooms. I was always fortunate to have great roommates on projects where I had to share a room and it actually made the whole experience a lot more fun, but overall this practice should be abolished.
As far as justifying receipts for expenses, that all boils down to how a business does its accounting. No matter your opinion on the matter, companies get set in their ways, however archaic they may be. Then you have clients that require this and a lot of times it has nothing to do with archeology, but is a practice more suited for the predominant professions in that group. Like my last company, the vast majority of employees were engineers that didn't have many extended field assignments, so receipts were fine. We used to go round and round with the accounting department about getting flat per diem for temporary crew because the idea was not the standard.
Post ID#1348 - replied 3/30/2007 1:32 PM
scottyj432
There are two types of per diem: "substantiated" and "deemed substantiated".
Under a substantiated per diem arrangement, the employee must substantiate reasonable expenses, as defined by the IRS, with reciepts. The total amount of daily expenses reimbursed cannot exceed whatever the IRS has determined the per diem rate for the area in which the employee is working or traveling. These per diem rates vary widely depending on the cost of living in any given area.
Deemed substantiated per diem is a flat rate per diem plan and can be a daily rate at or below the IRS per diem rate in that area.
If you are working for a company on a project and are recieving a flat per diem rate of $45/day for meals but then move to another area with the same company and the IRS per diem rate for this new area is only $35/day but the company continues to pay you the $45/day rate, the IRS then considers the $10/day difference as income and you have to pay taxes on it (the $10/day).
Whether reciepts only per diem is "justified" is a matter of opinion. The IRS allows employers to choose whatever per diem arrangement they want.
The IRS has a very lengthy section on the IRS website discussing this topic.
Under a substantiated per diem arrangement, the employee must substantiate reasonable expenses, as defined by the IRS, with reciepts. The total amount of daily expenses reimbursed cannot exceed whatever the IRS has determined the per diem rate for the area in which the employee is working or traveling. These per diem rates vary widely depending on the cost of living in any given area.
Deemed substantiated per diem is a flat rate per diem plan and can be a daily rate at or below the IRS per diem rate in that area.
If you are working for a company on a project and are recieving a flat per diem rate of $45/day for meals but then move to another area with the same company and the IRS per diem rate for this new area is only $35/day but the company continues to pay you the $45/day rate, the IRS then considers the $10/day difference as income and you have to pay taxes on it (the $10/day).
Whether reciepts only per diem is "justified" is a matter of opinion. The IRS allows employers to choose whatever per diem arrangement they want.
The IRS has a very lengthy section on the IRS website discussing this topic.
Post ID#1353 - replied 3/31/2007 11:17 AM
BAJR
So let me get this straight..
in general you are 'happy' with $13 per hour for a standard shovelbum job
but would like to see some form of standardisation in subsistance, holiday allocation, sickness/health care and accomodation on sites more that say 50 miles from your home. Accomodation should also be (unless impossible) in single accomodation units/rooms.. where you can have privacy? What about travel to and from work.
Am I getting close?
in general you are 'happy' with $13 per hour for a standard shovelbum job
but would like to see some form of standardisation in subsistance, holiday allocation, sickness/health care and accomodation on sites more that say 50 miles from your home. Accomodation should also be (unless impossible) in single accomodation units/rooms.. where you can have privacy? What about travel to and from work.
Am I getting close?
Post ID#1360 - replied 4/1/2007 10:42 AM
KidCharlemagne
[quote:="BAJR"]So let me get this straight..
in general you are 'happy' with $13 per hour for a standard shovelbum job
but would like to see some form of standardisation in subsistance, holiday allocation, sickness/health care and accomodation on sites more that say 50 miles from your home. Accomodation should also be (unless impossible) in single accomodation units/rooms.. where you can have privacy? What about travel to and from work.
Am I getting close?
I believe that for an entry-level 0-6 months experience tech position, $13 is a reasonable rate of pay (in the southeastern US - elsewhere, of course, it should vary according to the cost of living).
My contention is that 6 months is approximately the time that a bright and hard-working tech should be able to figure out more or less the basics of CRM archaeology. That period could/should be considered the "training" period.
However, once out of that period of time, provided that a tech can demonstrate a level of knowledge, experience, and work ethic commensurate with a 4-year degree and work experience directly related to the job, I believe that the pay rate should be raised to a level respecting the education and experience. It would be based on evaluations, of course. No one should just get a raise simply for "time served," since I know a lot of techs who have well over 5 years experience who I don't think are worth $10/hour.
Many industries have a sort of "intro/apprentice-type" period, in which training to do the job to the standards of the industry is provided. This training is, in its own way, could be considered a benefit, since (under the pay/compensation scheme I'm describing) at the end of that training period, the tech could expect a reasonable pay hike to something resembling a decent living wage.
As things stand right now, you could have someone with five years experience receiving the exact same hourly wage as someone with less than a year under his or her belt. Something's not right in a world where experience is not rewarded with an increase in pay/compensation.
Suppose that once you hit the 6 month mark, your employer were then to up you to a more appropriate wage - say, $15/hour for 6 months to a year (base, hourly), $18/hour for 1-2 years, and $20/hour for 3+ years.
I'm not going to get into supervisory pay at this point, because it's an entirely different ballgame, and there are too many variables to consider for this post.
But imagine a system like this, where a tech with 3+ years experience could expect to receive a pay rate of roughly $20/hour. A few companies I've worked for paid new hires based on experience, but the top salary was considerably lower, even for people with 5+ years of experience.
This arrangement would still provide a good deal of relatively "cheap" labor, because (let's face it) many, many techs are new graduates and lack even 6 months of full-time experience.
It would also reward those who possess enough experience (and enough of a work ethic) that they can be counted on to do a higher level/quality of work than someone being paid the absolute minimum possible. You could ensure that you'd have people around to help to train the new people, and you'd be able to expect a certain quality of work above and beyond people who are just there to survive, and feel no loyalty to the company that's running them ragged for what amounts to an annual salary barely above the poverty line.
in general you are 'happy' with $13 per hour for a standard shovelbum job
but would like to see some form of standardisation in subsistance, holiday allocation, sickness/health care and accomodation on sites more that say 50 miles from your home. Accomodation should also be (unless impossible) in single accomodation units/rooms.. where you can have privacy? What about travel to and from work.
Am I getting close?
I believe that for an entry-level 0-6 months experience tech position, $13 is a reasonable rate of pay (in the southeastern US - elsewhere, of course, it should vary according to the cost of living).
My contention is that 6 months is approximately the time that a bright and hard-working tech should be able to figure out more or less the basics of CRM archaeology. That period could/should be considered the "training" period.
However, once out of that period of time, provided that a tech can demonstrate a level of knowledge, experience, and work ethic commensurate with a 4-year degree and work experience directly related to the job, I believe that the pay rate should be raised to a level respecting the education and experience. It would be based on evaluations, of course. No one should just get a raise simply for "time served," since I know a lot of techs who have well over 5 years experience who I don't think are worth $10/hour.
Many industries have a sort of "intro/apprentice-type" period, in which training to do the job to the standards of the industry is provided. This training is, in its own way, could be considered a benefit, since (under the pay/compensation scheme I'm describing) at the end of that training period, the tech could expect a reasonable pay hike to something resembling a decent living wage.
As things stand right now, you could have someone with five years experience receiving the exact same hourly wage as someone with less than a year under his or her belt. Something's not right in a world where experience is not rewarded with an increase in pay/compensation.
Suppose that once you hit the 6 month mark, your employer were then to up you to a more appropriate wage - say, $15/hour for 6 months to a year (base, hourly), $18/hour for 1-2 years, and $20/hour for 3+ years.
I'm not going to get into supervisory pay at this point, because it's an entirely different ballgame, and there are too many variables to consider for this post.
But imagine a system like this, where a tech with 3+ years experience could expect to receive a pay rate of roughly $20/hour. A few companies I've worked for paid new hires based on experience, but the top salary was considerably lower, even for people with 5+ years of experience.
This arrangement would still provide a good deal of relatively "cheap" labor, because (let's face it) many, many techs are new graduates and lack even 6 months of full-time experience.
It would also reward those who possess enough experience (and enough of a work ethic) that they can be counted on to do a higher level/quality of work than someone being paid the absolute minimum possible. You could ensure that you'd have people around to help to train the new people, and you'd be able to expect a certain quality of work above and beyond people who are just there to survive, and feel no loyalty to the company that's running them ragged for what amounts to an annual salary barely above the poverty line.
Post ID#1362 - replied 4/2/2007 1:53 AM
terrascythe
I'll just make my final note on this topic.
Though it was ill put, I don't take back anything I wrote before.
If you take a job for min-wage, $13/hr or $30/hr, then you've made an agreement with you're employer that the wage is fair compensation for the labor you provide. If you don't think it's fair then you either ask your employer for more money or you get a second job, or you quit.
I've worked two jobs in CRM while listening to my co-workers complain about wages. I've talked to my boss and fought for more money while my co-workers complained about wages. I've worked in non-related fields while other archaeologist were on unemployment. I've quit because of money. I've traveled half way around the country for a higher wage.
I'm sick of seeing archaeologists wait for scraps from the bosses table. You know what you're worth and you know the value of the labor you provide. Fight for it, deal with it, be proactive and stand-up for something that's important to you. If you don't then it must not be that significant.
I know what I'm worth, and that's the wage I earn, no less or no more. It didn't come easy, there was a time to stand up for myself so I stood up. I won't ask for a raise, nor do I think I deserve one, until I better myself and value my labor greater.
Though it was ill put, I don't take back anything I wrote before.
If you take a job for min-wage, $13/hr or $30/hr, then you've made an agreement with you're employer that the wage is fair compensation for the labor you provide. If you don't think it's fair then you either ask your employer for more money or you get a second job, or you quit.
I've worked two jobs in CRM while listening to my co-workers complain about wages. I've talked to my boss and fought for more money while my co-workers complained about wages. I've worked in non-related fields while other archaeologist were on unemployment. I've quit because of money. I've traveled half way around the country for a higher wage.
I'm sick of seeing archaeologists wait for scraps from the bosses table. You know what you're worth and you know the value of the labor you provide. Fight for it, deal with it, be proactive and stand-up for something that's important to you. If you don't then it must not be that significant.
I know what I'm worth, and that's the wage I earn, no less or no more. It didn't come easy, there was a time to stand up for myself so I stood up. I won't ask for a raise, nor do I think I deserve one, until I better myself and value my labor greater.
Post ID#1372 - replied 4/2/2007 12:48 PM
KidCharlemagne
[quote:="terrascythe"]I'm sick of seeing archaeologists wait for scraps from the bosses table. You know what you're worth and you know the value of the labor you provide. Fight for it, deal with it, be proactive and stand-up for something that's important to you. If you don't then it must not be that significant.
I know what I'm worth, and that's the wage I earn, no less or no more. It didn't come easy, there was a time to stand up for myself so I stood up. I won't ask for a raise, nor do I think I deserve one, until I better myself and value my labor greater.
I would be curious to know where you live and what you're worth, according to your salary. The problem is that most archaeologists are unaware of "what they're worth," because there's no benchmark other than a rundown of prevailing wages across the country produced in 2000, and a rough correlation between our job(s) and the list prevailing wages for "laborer" jobs provided by the Department of Labor. Because of that, very few archaeologists are ever placed in a position to ask for reasonable pay increases corresponding to their "value".
If I went by the federal labor figures, my value is about twice what I'm paid, and if you seriously mean to tell me that I can pull off that sort of negotiation, then I'm not sure you understand the wages of the CRM world as much as claim to.
Since you speak as though you've gotten everything figured out, please explain a little bit of it to those of us who haven't.
Judging from the industry and most of the posts in here, you're in the minority.
I know what I'm worth, and that's the wage I earn, no less or no more. It didn't come easy, there was a time to stand up for myself so I stood up. I won't ask for a raise, nor do I think I deserve one, until I better myself and value my labor greater.
I would be curious to know where you live and what you're worth, according to your salary. The problem is that most archaeologists are unaware of "what they're worth," because there's no benchmark other than a rundown of prevailing wages across the country produced in 2000, and a rough correlation between our job(s) and the list prevailing wages for "laborer" jobs provided by the Department of Labor. Because of that, very few archaeologists are ever placed in a position to ask for reasonable pay increases corresponding to their "value".
If I went by the federal labor figures, my value is about twice what I'm paid, and if you seriously mean to tell me that I can pull off that sort of negotiation, then I'm not sure you understand the wages of the CRM world as much as claim to.
Since you speak as though you've gotten everything figured out, please explain a little bit of it to those of us who haven't.
Judging from the industry and most of the posts in here, you're in the minority.
Post ID#1417 - replied 4/4/2007 4:00 PM
BAJR
Just got back from the Institute of Field Archaeologists Conference in the UK.. there we are moving into gear for combining all heritage enviroment professionals as one voice.. and going for chartered status.. (could take about 5 years .. but at least is now started) we are close to completeting a full benchmark on all archaeological positions, and this will hopefully surplant the BAJR grading system, which although damn good.. was just my own consideration... however.. it did work... and I think it needs someone in the USA to grasp the nettle... and make a start.. honest it can be done...
after only a few years, BAJR has become the benchmark and punched so far above it's weight that it negotiates with govt agencies, professional organisations and unions as an equal partner... why... because i belived in what i did and was a bloody annoying person who would not go away.
It is obvious that people here care jsut as much... so go on... make a start... gather job info... look at pay rates... look at what people are expected to do and also create a simple grading of cost of living for the USA... deciding whether a base rate must be increased by x ammount depending on location.... (like London Weigting at 1600 pounds extra a year required to bring a base salary up to normal) Look at what is reasonable and affordable.. then go for it... I can't stress enough that hard work/talking a negotiations pays off.. like here... we are now on the way to a serious profession that will be treated accordingly.
I am more than happy to send over any of my work to help as a template.
after only a few years, BAJR has become the benchmark and punched so far above it's weight that it negotiates with govt agencies, professional organisations and unions as an equal partner... why... because i belived in what i did and was a bloody annoying person who would not go away.
It is obvious that people here care jsut as much... so go on... make a start... gather job info... look at pay rates... look at what people are expected to do and also create a simple grading of cost of living for the USA... deciding whether a base rate must be increased by x ammount depending on location.... (like London Weigting at 1600 pounds extra a year required to bring a base salary up to normal) Look at what is reasonable and affordable.. then go for it... I can't stress enough that hard work/talking a negotiations pays off.. like here... we are now on the way to a serious profession that will be treated accordingly.
I am more than happy to send over any of my work to help as a template.
Post ID#1458 - replied 4/6/2007 7:19 PM
scottyj432
So this was on the CNN website today and I thought it might add an interesting spin to this thread. Notice the difference between the various majors and the Liberal Arts grads, which I suppose is the closest thing to recent grads in our field, tho the starting salaries for Liberal Arts certainly have no reality to this profession!!! However, the university from which I graduated lists me in the alumni directory under the "scientist/researcher" category and I can tell you all, I make nothing close to the starting salaries listed here for similar fields. It should be pointed out here that all the career fields discussed in this article relate to "revenue-generating" jobs.
I see things like this in the news and just shake my head. Anyway, here is the article:
Grad salary offers on the rise
Chemical engineers, marketing majors are raking it in, but accounting grads aren't seeing similar increases.
By David Ellis, CNNMoney.com staff writer
April 5 2007: 10:58 AM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- This year it really pays to have a college degree.
Salary offers made to soon-to-be college graduates are on the rise in just about every field, according to a quarterly survey of 81 schools published this week by the National Association of Colleges & Employers' (NACE).
This year engineering majors were once again some of the most handsomely compensated, according to NACE. Chemical engineers topped the list with the average offer climbing 5.6 percent over the past year to $59,707. Civil and mechanical engineering majors saw job offers climb by roughly 5 percent or more.
Marketing majors, by far, experienced the biggest jump in salary. Over the past year, offers climbed 10.3 percent, on average, to $41,285.
Accounting majors, while one of the mostly highly sought after students by employers on college campuses, only saw their starting salaries climb just 2.7 percent to $47,421.
Offers made to computer science grads, which fell in the 2005-2006 school year, have rallied this year, climbing 2.5 percent to $52,177.
Salaries for liberal arts majors appear to be holding steady. Based on early numbers, the salary offers for liberal arts majors were up 1.2 percent from last spring to $31,333, but below the pace of inflation.
So far this year, the job market has looked pretty promising for the 1.5 million college seniors set to graduate this year, despite recent signs of weakness in the larger U.S. labor market.
In fact, NACE estimated last fall that employers will hire 17.4 percent more graduates this year than they did in 2005-2006.
And that trend appears to be showing up on college campuses nationwide.
"We are seeing a real aggressive push for the hiring of new graduates," said Stan Inman, director of career services, at the University of Utah, which graduates roughly 5,000 students annually.
While U.S. economic expansion certainly is driving the college labor market, many employers are ramping up their hiring in an effort to find replacement workers for the fast-approaching retirement of the baby boomer generation.
NACE plans on publishing its next quarterly report in July.
Salary offers made to soon-to-be college graduates are on the rise in just about every field, according to a quarterly survey published this week by the National Association of Colleges & Employers' (NACE).
I see things like this in the news and just shake my head. Anyway, here is the article:
Grad salary offers on the rise
Chemical engineers, marketing majors are raking it in, but accounting grads aren't seeing similar increases.
By David Ellis, CNNMoney.com staff writer
April 5 2007: 10:58 AM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- This year it really pays to have a college degree.
Salary offers made to soon-to-be college graduates are on the rise in just about every field, according to a quarterly survey of 81 schools published this week by the National Association of Colleges & Employers' (NACE).
This year engineering majors were once again some of the most handsomely compensated, according to NACE. Chemical engineers topped the list with the average offer climbing 5.6 percent over the past year to $59,707. Civil and mechanical engineering majors saw job offers climb by roughly 5 percent or more.
Marketing majors, by far, experienced the biggest jump in salary. Over the past year, offers climbed 10.3 percent, on average, to $41,285.
Accounting majors, while one of the mostly highly sought after students by employers on college campuses, only saw their starting salaries climb just 2.7 percent to $47,421.
Offers made to computer science grads, which fell in the 2005-2006 school year, have rallied this year, climbing 2.5 percent to $52,177.
Salaries for liberal arts majors appear to be holding steady. Based on early numbers, the salary offers for liberal arts majors were up 1.2 percent from last spring to $31,333, but below the pace of inflation.
So far this year, the job market has looked pretty promising for the 1.5 million college seniors set to graduate this year, despite recent signs of weakness in the larger U.S. labor market.
In fact, NACE estimated last fall that employers will hire 17.4 percent more graduates this year than they did in 2005-2006.
And that trend appears to be showing up on college campuses nationwide.
"We are seeing a real aggressive push for the hiring of new graduates," said Stan Inman, director of career services, at the University of Utah, which graduates roughly 5,000 students annually.
While U.S. economic expansion certainly is driving the college labor market, many employers are ramping up their hiring in an effort to find replacement workers for the fast-approaching retirement of the baby boomer generation.
NACE plans on publishing its next quarterly report in July.
Salary offers made to soon-to-be college graduates are on the rise in just about every field, according to a quarterly survey published this week by the National Association of Colleges & Employers' (NACE).
Post ID#1462 - replied 4/7/2007 2:09 PM
Windustsearch
College grads with a year or two of experience (that are good) in my neck of the woods can expect about $50,000+ a year to start. I have also met MA holders that make $90,000 at jobs. Additionally, CRM company owners can make very little or millions depending on how savy or sometimes how shrewd they are.
That said I have met a number of grads who are essentially field techs because they lack the skills to write, or do some other speciality- the people that will not learn on their own and take it to the next level. IMO, as a grad your skill and consequently your pay rate is largely up to you.
That said I have met a number of grads who are essentially field techs because they lack the skills to write, or do some other speciality- the people that will not learn on their own and take it to the next level. IMO, as a grad your skill and consequently your pay rate is largely up to you.
Post ID#1544 - replied 4/16/2007 7:52 AM
Jennifer Palmer
Webmaster
I saw this job posted today, and I chose not to pass it along to the website (a rare occurence for me). Looks like it was posted by an employment agency:
Description
Archeological Tech $13.50-15.50/hr Great Job! Will Train Call xxx-xxxx Search area of proposed projects for historic & prehistoric remnants! NWE list svc 1 time fee $180 #310 once in a lifetime opportunity!
Any thoughts on this?
Description
Archeological Tech $13.50-15.50/hr Great Job! Will Train Call xxx-xxxx Search area of proposed projects for historic & prehistoric remnants! NWE list svc 1 time fee $180 #310 once in a lifetime opportunity!
Any thoughts on this?
Post ID#1551 - replied 4/16/2007 6:36 PM
FireArch
Moderator
Wise choice Jennifer.
Never pay anyone to find work for you in this business.
And really, would you want to work for an outfit that hires an employment agency to look for field techs? Not me brother...
Never pay anyone to find work for you in this business.
And really, would you want to work for an outfit that hires an employment agency to look for field techs? Not me brother...
Post ID#1552 - replied 4/16/2007 7:24 PM
Jennifer Palmer
Webmaster
Richard, I suppose I was more troubled by the lack of requirements for such a position. It reminds me of more than one company I worked for where my boss wanted me to put an ad up to to get some warm bodies to fill the crew. They didn't care who was manning a shovel, and the archaeology showed it.
Of course this isn't meant to take away from folks who do want those entry-level positions - people have to start from somewhere, and I have worked with a lot of competent archaeologists through the years who did not possess the usual background of a starting point of a degree or a field school. However, I've often wondered if higher salaries for field crew would come about if there was a system of guidelines in place mandating what credentials were necessary for various positions. And going further with this, how nice would it be if a properly staffed crew had to have a certain percentage of experienced people in place? Most projects can safely absorb a few new people when there are some veterans around to lean on, and ask questions of. When almost an entire crew with no experience is sent out into the field on their own, sometimes the end result in terms of the archaeology practiced can be disastrous. I only hope that the firm that placed the aforementioned ad was trying to fill a few slots, and not field their entire project with people that did not possess even a rudimentary background or knowledge of the discipline. Being given a quick instruction in how to dig a shovel test does not an archaeologist make, IMHO.
Of course this isn't meant to take away from folks who do want those entry-level positions - people have to start from somewhere, and I have worked with a lot of competent archaeologists through the years who did not possess the usual background of a starting point of a degree or a field school. However, I've often wondered if higher salaries for field crew would come about if there was a system of guidelines in place mandating what credentials were necessary for various positions. And going further with this, how nice would it be if a properly staffed crew had to have a certain percentage of experienced people in place? Most projects can safely absorb a few new people when there are some veterans around to lean on, and ask questions of. When almost an entire crew with no experience is sent out into the field on their own, sometimes the end result in terms of the archaeology practiced can be disastrous. I only hope that the firm that placed the aforementioned ad was trying to fill a few slots, and not field their entire project with people that did not possess even a rudimentary background or knowledge of the discipline. Being given a quick instruction in how to dig a shovel test does not an archaeologist make, IMHO.
Post ID#1584 - replied 4/19/2007 9:25 PM
rtx2
We just covered CRM (very briefly) tonight in my last arch class of the semester.
Needless to say, this site (and thread) has been much more informative.
Thanks to all for the great info and insight.
Needless to say, this site (and thread) has been much more informative.
Thanks to all for the great info and insight.
Post ID#1622 - replied 4/24/2007 10:09 AM
rkeyo
Moderator
I got this last night and thought it would mesh well with this discussion:
I've just been informed of an e-petition on 10 Downing Street's website
regarding archaeologists pay and thought many members might be
interested.
The deadline for signing up is 4th July 2007.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Archaeology/
Best wishes
James Morris
PhD Student
Bournemouth University
I've just been informed of an e-petition on 10 Downing Street's website
regarding archaeologists pay and thought many members might be
interested.
The deadline for signing up is 4th July 2007.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Archaeology/
Best wishes
James Morris
PhD Student
Bournemouth University
Post ID#1774 - replied 5/6/2007 7:45 AM
BAJR
Several threads on BAJR following this Petition (and the issues it raises)
if you are interested you can jump to them here.
Follow up document to petition
http://www.bajr.org/bajrforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1204
Living Wage campaign in the UK
http://www.bajr.org/bajrforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1128
The thoughts on the petition
http://www.bajr.org/bajrforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1200
if you are interested you can jump to them here.
Follow up document to petition
http://www.bajr.org/bajrforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1204
Living Wage campaign in the UK
http://www.bajr.org/bajrforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1128
The thoughts on the petition
http://www.bajr.org/bajrforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1200
Post ID#2887 - replied 8/7/2007 5:09 AM
BAJR
thought I would ressurrect this thread... ask what people are doing? thinking? any movement or no change?
Post ID#2895 - replied 8/7/2007 11:06 AM
cmarknicholson
I didn't follow the last thread, but I can tell you that as someone who has a MA in archaeology I don't want to work for $15 per hour, or even $18 per hour. This is what CRM firms are paying now. They want a ton of experience but don't want to pay. They bill us out as project managers at 2x or 3x what they pay us to cover overhead.
I got out of archaeology and into GIS because it pays better but I do miss it. I have a family and don't want to be underpaid and made to travel 5 days a week. It's sort of a sad state.
I got out of archaeology and into GIS because it pays better but I do miss it. I have a family and don't want to be underpaid and made to travel 5 days a week. It's sort of a sad state.
Post ID#2929 - replied 8/9/2007 4:43 PM
rjhowell
BAJR-
Based on my recent experience and discussion with colleagues, there has been a little movement recently on the single-occupancy/double occupancy hotel side of the game. I am starting to see more field-techs discuss this (single occupancy) as a standard benefit, rather than a perk as it was sold in the past. We attribute this mainly to the availibility of web-sites like Jennifer's and Joe's "shovelbums" that allow field techs to compare many jobs simultaneously and request detailed benefit summaries and wage breakdowns. Hopefully, the same gradual effect will occur with wages.
Wages are still roughly similar ($13-16/hr) for field tech, a little less in the western US and more in the California state boom currently. The on-going consolidation of the CRM industry by larger corporate engineering entities has raised the base-line wages for M.A-level postions. As those companies tend to pay professional archaeologists along "engineer" pay-grades.
Based on my recent experience and discussion with colleagues, there has been a little movement recently on the single-occupancy/double occupancy hotel side of the game. I am starting to see more field-techs discuss this (single occupancy) as a standard benefit, rather than a perk as it was sold in the past. We attribute this mainly to the availibility of web-sites like Jennifer's and Joe's "shovelbums" that allow field techs to compare many jobs simultaneously and request detailed benefit summaries and wage breakdowns. Hopefully, the same gradual effect will occur with wages.
Wages are still roughly similar ($13-16/hr) for field tech, a little less in the western US and more in the California state boom currently. The on-going consolidation of the CRM industry by larger corporate engineering entities has raised the base-line wages for M.A-level postions. As those companies tend to pay professional archaeologists along "engineer" pay-grades.
Post ID#2948 - replied 8/11/2007 10:58 AM
BAJR
Glad to hear about some movement... painfully slow (like here) but moving..
The benchmarking we are undertaking will perhaps be useful for yourselves, as it will provide a baseline for all archaeology related jobs... from surveyor to digger... from project manager to illustrator.
keep it going!
The benchmarking we are undertaking will perhaps be useful for yourselves, as it will provide a baseline for all archaeology related jobs... from surveyor to digger... from project manager to illustrator.
keep it going!
Post ID#3023 - replied 8/16/2007 7:53 PM
Classarch
When I hear of people calling field techs "unskilled" labor it really gets my blood boil! An "unskilled" laborer is someone who has no TRAINING and no EDUCATION. Even a person digging ditches gets paid more than we do and he is someone who is unskilled.
The reality of the matter is that most CRM firms think that they are doing techs a favor by offering them jobs paying 12$ an hr or even 13$ which is towards the HIGH end. They think that because they are the ones who bid on the contracts and deal with the clients and write the reports that they are worth more. This unfortunately is the reality for any field or profession. In reality though it is THE GRUNTS who allow those companies to get the jobs done AND if it wasn't for the Techs then NO ONE WOULD HAVE A JOB!
I don't understand why the CRM firms don't get together and agree to higher pay for techs and agree not to bid lower than the amount that would allow them to pay Techs a higher wage and maybe even some benefits, especially health insurance. This would be beneficial to ALL in CRM from the PI to the field directors and crew chiefs. After all thanks to sec. 106 NOTHING can be done without archaeologist. So in a sense CRM firms have everyone by the kajones. So why noy take advantage of that and do something about it?
Anyways thats my take on it and my 5 cents worth!
The reality of the matter is that most CRM firms think that they are doing techs a favor by offering them jobs paying 12$ an hr or even 13$ which is towards the HIGH end. They think that because they are the ones who bid on the contracts and deal with the clients and write the reports that they are worth more. This unfortunately is the reality for any field or profession. In reality though it is THE GRUNTS who allow those companies to get the jobs done AND if it wasn't for the Techs then NO ONE WOULD HAVE A JOB!
I don't understand why the CRM firms don't get together and agree to higher pay for techs and agree not to bid lower than the amount that would allow them to pay Techs a higher wage and maybe even some benefits, especially health insurance. This would be beneficial to ALL in CRM from the PI to the field directors and crew chiefs. After all thanks to sec. 106 NOTHING can be done without archaeologist. So in a sense CRM firms have everyone by the kajones. So why noy take advantage of that and do something about it?
Anyways thats my take on it and my 5 cents worth!
Post ID#3026 - replied 8/16/2007 9:16 PM
FireArch
Moderator
I don't understand why the CRM firms don't get together and agree to higher pay for techs and agree not to bid lower than the amount that would allow them to pay Techs a higher wage
They cannot. That would be illegal, for the very same reasons that the gas companies cannot "collude" to keep their prices high.
They cannot. That would be illegal, for the very same reasons that the gas companies cannot "collude" to keep their prices high.
Post ID#3027 - replied 8/16/2007 9:44 PM
Dwarmour
It would be good if CRM firms paid a higher amount. Surely they hear all that the field techs are saying but they don't take it into account. If there was just a way for the people who do the dirty work to get paid like we went to college, like perhaps an organization, I think it could work. But if we techs keep taking this $&it paid work then it won't ever happen. I've realized that most field techs are completely apathetic to this issue. I've met some who think that 11 an hour is actually good pay for having spent 30 grand or more on college. . .a garbage man makes as much as we do and he wasn't stupid enough to pay for a degree.
I'm sure someone is going to try and say that 11-15 dollars an hour is great pay but if I can make that much being a manager of a general store or something and not have to deal with the stress of living in hotels, moving all over the place, no benefits, and having to CONSTANTLY be searching for new projects because there is no guarantee of job security then I would say the pay isn't good AT ALL(then theres always that bum that tries to say that its not about the money)!
Sorry I just rambled that shpeel; frankly, i do think its the firms themselves fault in this matter and I don't think this matter will be resolved for a long time unless the techs actually do something about it. There are more of us than them. I know I can do good work, I should start my own firm and place extremely low bids for me and a couple of other hard workers to do and pocket all the money. . .just my own thought.
I'm sure someone is going to try and say that 11-15 dollars an hour is great pay but if I can make that much being a manager of a general store or something and not have to deal with the stress of living in hotels, moving all over the place, no benefits, and having to CONSTANTLY be searching for new projects because there is no guarantee of job security then I would say the pay isn't good AT ALL(then theres always that bum that tries to say that its not about the money)!
Sorry I just rambled that shpeel; frankly, i do think its the firms themselves fault in this matter and I don't think this matter will be resolved for a long time unless the techs actually do something about it. There are more of us than them. I know I can do good work, I should start my own firm and place extremely low bids for me and a couple of other hard workers to do and pocket all the money. . .just my own thought.
Post ID#3031 - replied 8/17/2007 2:21 AM
fresno
:lol:
Post ID#3039 - replied 8/17/2007 2:53 PM
Dwarmour
That sounds like a good idea from the outset, but do you really want to deal with proposals, bids, permits, SHPO, pissed off clients, insurance, payroll, and the bottom line? You'd never find the time to scratch around in the dirt.
yeah I wouldn't mind.
As to everyone going on a "strike," it was a what-if kinda of suggestion. I know they would hire some other people. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to dig holes and they could always train them in a week or so to do the job sub-par.
yeah I wouldn't mind.
As to everyone going on a "strike," it was a what-if kinda of suggestion. I know they would hire some other people. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to dig holes and they could always train them in a week or so to do the job sub-par.
Post ID#3043 - replied 8/17/2007 3:17 PM
prisoner
[quote:="prisoner"][quote:="99thpercentile"]Another issue to address here is that higher paying jobs in general are revenue producers. Archaeology isn't a revenue producing field, many companies consider it a drain on their resources. It is in most cases mandated by law.
This is a big part of it. Most of the CRM in this country is done in the private sector. Private developers contracting with private CRM firms to do the work. Even in the case of highway projects, especially new ones, most of the work is being conducted by private developers that are subcontracting the CRM services. The requirements to do this work is not welcome by developers and the firms operating in CRM are highly competitive. Add to that, the line item for CRM in a private development is miniscule compared to the other items they are budgeting for. All of this adds up to CRM on the cheap which trickles down to lower wages for most CRM professionals. The laws are there to require this work, but that may not always be the case, or at least they may not continue to exist at their current level of regulation.
The simple fact is, and I agree with terrascythe here, the work required of field techs is not that difficult. Not so much that it requires a four year degree and field school. The fact that companies require this is silly, but they can. There are enough newly minted BAs looking to get their feet wet that the minimum requirements can remain high.
That leads to other problem with the field tech world. Field techs are often in it for the short term. Yes a lot of people shovelbum for 10 or more years, but those people are not as common. More often than not a new graduate with a BA is looking to fill sometime between undergrad and grad school. They see the limitation of not having an MA and move towards that. The you have the folks that realize this is not their cup of tea and move out of CRM altogether. Add to that the fact that most companies need a relatively high number of field techs (relative to permanent staff) for temporary field work and when it is over they are gone. Therefore, you have companies paying low wages to field techs to reserve higher wages for permanent employees. You also have BAs willing to work for less because they are only in it temporarily while they gain experience to move onto their MA.
Essentially, starting as a field tech is not an entry level job. That term sounds like there is an opportunity to advance with a company, and that is often not the case. It is more akin to skilled labor. Much like skilled labor in other industries a few people move up to be supervisors and bunch don't. That is just the reality of this business, shovelbumming is a job not a career.
I am reposting this post I made when this thread started. Although wages for techs seem to be rising faster then they did when I was a tech they are still not great. However, the argument that you went to college and should be paid as such is not relevant because being a field tech does not require a college degree. Yes most companies require that, but the actual work involved does not. I have even seen a program at a community college offering an AA in Archeology to train techs. Why should an MA or PhD be paid more than a BA to do the exact same job?
Pay for a job should depend on the experience required, the expertise required, the amount of responsibility expected, and to some extent the amount of available applicants suited to fill the position. I don't think techs are unskilled labor, but more like skilled labor. Where I work unskilled laborers make roughly $3 to $4 dollars less an hour than our techs (around $13). Skilled laborers may make the same or slightly higher. Just because the welder on the project is making more without a degree doesn't mean anything. They are doing a different job that is probably more important to the client than archeology and there may be more demand for them. You can certainly make more money managing a fast food restaurant than you can as a field tech, but most of us choose to do what we enjoy.
As I stated in my previous post I think a lot of it boils down to competition and demand for CRM services. There are very few CRM companies getting rich doing what we do. They may be successful, profitable, and they may pay permanent employees a lot more than techs. But those people generally carry a lot of responsibility and make the company successful.
This is a big part of it. Most of the CRM in this country is done in the private sector. Private developers contracting with private CRM firms to do the work. Even in the case of highway projects, especially new ones, most of the work is being conducted by private developers that are subcontracting the CRM services. The requirements to do this work is not welcome by developers and the firms operating in CRM are highly competitive. Add to that, the line item for CRM in a private development is miniscule compared to the other items they are budgeting for. All of this adds up to CRM on the cheap which trickles down to lower wages for most CRM professionals. The laws are there to require this work, but that may not always be the case, or at least they may not continue to exist at their current level of regulation.
The simple fact is, and I agree with terrascythe here, the work required of field techs is not that difficult. Not so much that it requires a four year degree and field school. The fact that companies require this is silly, but they can. There are enough newly minted BAs looking to get their feet wet that the minimum requirements can remain high.
That leads to other problem with the field tech world. Field techs are often in it for the short term. Yes a lot of people shovelbum for 10 or more years, but those people are not as common. More often than not a new graduate with a BA is looking to fill sometime between undergrad and grad school. They see the limitation of not having an MA and move towards that. The you have the folks that realize this is not their cup of tea and move out of CRM altogether. Add to that the fact that most companies need a relatively high number of field techs (relative to permanent staff) for temporary field work and when it is over they are gone. Therefore, you have companies paying low wages to field techs to reserve higher wages for permanent employees. You also have BAs willing to work for less because they are only in it temporarily while they gain experience to move onto their MA.
Essentially, starting as a field tech is not an entry level job. That term sounds like there is an opportunity to advance with a company, and that is often not the case. It is more akin to skilled labor. Much like skilled labor in other industries a few people move up to be supervisors and bunch don't. That is just the reality of this business, shovelbumming is a job not a career.
I am reposting this post I made when this thread started. Although wages for techs seem to be rising faster then they did when I was a tech they are still not great. However, the argument that you went to college and should be paid as such is not relevant because being a field tech does not require a college degree. Yes most companies require that, but the actual work involved does not. I have even seen a program at a community college offering an AA in Archeology to train techs. Why should an MA or PhD be paid more than a BA to do the exact same job?
Pay for a job should depend on the experience required, the expertise required, the amount of responsibility expected, and to some extent the amount of available applicants suited to fill the position. I don't think techs are unskilled labor, but more like skilled labor. Where I work unskilled laborers make roughly $3 to $4 dollars less an hour than our techs (around $13). Skilled laborers may make the same or slightly higher. Just because the welder on the project is making more without a degree doesn't mean anything. They are doing a different job that is probably more important to the client than archeology and there may be more demand for them. You can certainly make more money managing a fast food restaurant than you can as a field tech, but most of us choose to do what we enjoy.
As I stated in my previous post I think a lot of it boils down to competition and demand for CRM services. There are very few CRM companies getting rich doing what we do. They may be successful, profitable, and they may pay permanent employees a lot more than techs. But those people generally carry a lot of responsibility and make the company successful.
Post ID#3047 - replied 8/17/2007 4:53 PM
Classarch
[quote:="FireArch"]I don't understand why the CRM firms don't get together and agree to higher pay for techs and agree not to bid lower than the amount that would allow them to pay Techs a higher wage
They cannot. That would be illegal, for the very same reasons that the gas companies cannot "collude" to keep their prices high.
I understand the bid aspect would be illegal, but why would a higher set standard for pay be? Every industry and profession has these standards so why not CRM when we are an integral part of many federally funded projects. Even the guys operating the bakchoes and dump trucks have a set rate.
There is absolutely no reason why CRM pay cannot be higher, what is keeping the pay low is the small companies low bidding in order to get a contract so they can stay in business. There is a reason why larger engineering firms pay more than small CRM firms!
They cannot. That would be illegal, for the very same reasons that the gas companies cannot "collude" to keep their prices high.
I understand the bid aspect would be illegal, but why would a higher set standard for pay be? Every industry and profession has these standards so why not CRM when we are an integral part of many federally funded projects. Even the guys operating the bakchoes and dump trucks have a set rate.
There is absolutely no reason why CRM pay cannot be higher, what is keeping the pay low is the small companies low bidding in order to get a contract so they can stay in business. There is a reason why larger engineering firms pay more than small CRM firms!
Post ID#3049 - replied 8/17/2007 5:05 PM
Classarch
"Skilled laborers may make the same or slightly higher. Just because the welder on the project is making more without a degree doesn't mean anything. They are doing a different job that is probably more important to the client than archeology and there may be more demand for them.'
I disagree in part. Yes the client may think a welder is more important but in reality NOTHING can be done WITHOUT CRM firms! That is something everyone needs to realize. The problem is no one takes advantage of this fact. As long as sect. 106 is on the books Arcaeologist are actually in control, but none of them truely realize this and in this lays the problem.
I have almost 4 years CRM experience and another 3 years classical arch experiece, but yet at times I can only get a job paying $11.25 an hr and double occupancy rooms. That to me is insulting and demeaning. This in contrast to some jobs I have seen for techs in the past 2 years offering $7.50 an hr for techs with a BS or BA.
I believe that the biggest problem is actually in the perspective of the general public of archaeology and it's importance. We are never thought of as being connected to higway projects or pipelines unless we point it out. This is one of those perceptions that needs to be altered, especially when most of us do more than just dig holes.
I disagree in part. Yes the client may think a welder is more important but in reality NOTHING can be done WITHOUT CRM firms! That is something everyone needs to realize. The problem is no one takes advantage of this fact. As long as sect. 106 is on the books Arcaeologist are actually in control, but none of them truely realize this and in this lays the problem.
I have almost 4 years CRM experience and another 3 years classical arch experiece, but yet at times I can only get a job paying $11.25 an hr and double occupancy rooms. That to me is insulting and demeaning. This in contrast to some jobs I have seen for techs in the past 2 years offering $7.50 an hr for techs with a BS or BA.
I believe that the biggest problem is actually in the perspective of the general public of archaeology and it's importance. We are never thought of as being connected to higway projects or pipelines unless we point it out. This is one of those perceptions that needs to be altered, especially when most of us do more than just dig holes.
Post ID#3052 - replied 8/17/2007 5:34 PM
prisoner
[quote:="Classarch"]As long as sect. 106 is on the books Arcaeologist are actually in control, but none of them truely realize this and in this lays the problem.
Good luck with that.
There are federal wage standards for archeologists and you can find them online by searching some webpage that escapes me at the moment. However, those only apply to federal jobs, not jobs done by private firms. Most CRM firms pay low wages because they can and going to a big engineering firm doesn't ensure higher wages. But, you can bet they are biling you out for more.
Honestly, I think wages could be a lot higher for techs. A lot of smaller companies don't bill that much over the wage rate for techs since there is usually no overhead or benefits so why can't they increase the hourly amount by three or four dollars? I think techs should probably be making somewhere in the $14 to $16/hour range (about $29k-$33k/year) with crew chiefs/field directors somewhere in the $16 to $20/hour range (about $33k to $41k/year). Adjusting for necessary cost of living etc. The second group is comparable to most state employees at that level I have seen in my area. If you compare with other jobs you probably have police, fire, EMS, teachers, etc. making equal or less and the public would probably view those jobs as infinitely more important.
The other problem is CRM seems slow to adjust to the times. Ten years ago you could dig for $7-$10/hour plus per diem (maybe). Ten years before that you could dig for about $6-$8/hour. Now you are looking at $11-$13/hour with some firms still paying below $10. I don't know about other fields, but that seems to be a pretty slow progression. I think a lot of it is just old timers that don;t see any need to change. My company raised its wages due to competition for techs with other firms and reviewing companies around the nation. Sometimes it just takes techs turning down jobs to drive the point home.
But, that goes back to my original post in that most firms can find people to work for $10/hour so why change. I wouldn;t count on their good graces.
Good luck with that.
There are federal wage standards for archeologists and you can find them online by searching some webpage that escapes me at the moment. However, those only apply to federal jobs, not jobs done by private firms. Most CRM firms pay low wages because they can and going to a big engineering firm doesn't ensure higher wages. But, you can bet they are biling you out for more.
Honestly, I think wages could be a lot higher for techs. A lot of smaller companies don't bill that much over the wage rate for techs since there is usually no overhead or benefits so why can't they increase the hourly amount by three or four dollars? I think techs should probably be making somewhere in the $14 to $16/hour range (about $29k-$33k/year) with crew chiefs/field directors somewhere in the $16 to $20/hour range (about $33k to $41k/year). Adjusting for necessary cost of living etc. The second group is comparable to most state employees at that level I have seen in my area. If you compare with other jobs you probably have police, fire, EMS, teachers, etc. making equal or less and the public would probably view those jobs as infinitely more important.
The other problem is CRM seems slow to adjust to the times. Ten years ago you could dig for $7-$10/hour plus per diem (maybe). Ten years before that you could dig for about $6-$8/hour. Now you are looking at $11-$13/hour with some firms still paying below $10. I don't know about other fields, but that seems to be a pretty slow progression. I think a lot of it is just old timers that don;t see any need to change. My company raised its wages due to competition for techs with other firms and reviewing companies around the nation. Sometimes it just takes techs turning down jobs to drive the point home.
But, that goes back to my original post in that most firms can find people to work for $10/hour so why change. I wouldn;t count on their good graces.
Post ID#3053 - replied 8/17/2007 6:05 PM
fresno
:lol:
Post ID#3068 - replied 8/20/2007 2:47 AM
Jenniloveslithics
I understand what many of you are saying in regards to wanting to be payed what your education reflects and I agree that people who are college educated should be paid well. It is really upsetting to know that a degree in archaeology doesn't pay very well. We are a capitalist society and that includes aspects of running a CRM firm.
I went into this field KNOWING that it is not a career choice that pays the big bucks unless I decide to pursue extensive post-grad education and even then it's still not a guarantee. I choose it because it's important to me and important to know that it makes a difference even if in some small way. The bottom line is that you still work for someone else and they make a profit which means you make less money than they do.
I will say that ALL of the professors and people working in CRM that I know have been very honest with me in expressing that it is NOT a career choice to choose if you want to make 100 K a year so for this I guess I am lucky. For me it is a career choice for the love of preserving our heritage and keeping it around for future generation to know about and have access to. The more I learn about it the more I care about it. I don't think most school teachers go to college expecting to make a ton of money being elementary school teachers but they to do it because they are making a difference, they deal with all kinds of issues that kids have every day in their classrooms.
I guess my whole point is this: you decide to become an archaeologist and even with a degree you start our at the bottom and work your way up, just like any other career. Experience and proving that you are a valuable and dependable worker I still believe, is what gives you opportunities to work your way up.
I went into this field KNOWING that it is not a career choice that pays the big bucks unless I decide to pursue extensive post-grad education and even then it's still not a guarantee. I choose it because it's important to me and important to know that it makes a difference even if in some small way. The bottom line is that you still work for someone else and they make a profit which means you make less money than they do.
I will say that ALL of the professors and people working in CRM that I know have been very honest with me in expressing that it is NOT a career choice to choose if you want to make 100 K a year so for this I guess I am lucky. For me it is a career choice for the love of preserving our heritage and keeping it around for future generation to know about and have access to. The more I learn about it the more I care about it. I don't think most school teachers go to college expecting to make a ton of money being elementary school teachers but they to do it because they are making a difference, they deal with all kinds of issues that kids have every day in their classrooms.
I guess my whole point is this: you decide to become an archaeologist and even with a degree you start our at the bottom and work your way up, just like any other career. Experience and proving that you are a valuable and dependable worker I still believe, is what gives you opportunities to work your way up.
Post ID#3088 - replied 8/20/2007 6:43 PM
Classarch
When it comes to compensation i never expected to become rich or even make a 100K a year. What i do expect is to be able to make a decent living and not worry how I am going to pay may bills each month. I would be perfectly content with making around 40K a year.
Post ID#3089 - replied 8/20/2007 6:52 PM
Classarch
On a side note I do have a question concerning federal compensation. It has come to my attention that federal projects have a base pay of $17.17 an hour plus $3.16 an hr health and welfare. Last year I worked in South Florida on a certain Project. This is a federal and state project. I was only getting compensation of $12 an hr from my employer. At the same time I had a buddy who was working for a different company doing the same job around a different part of the project and he was getting compensated the $17 and hr rate. This was only while he was doing the project and not while he was in Miami where he was getting pay in the $13 an hr range.
Now my question is, was I getting the shaft :shock: and if so, should I pursue the lost compensation during the duration I was working on the project? Also is there anyway to find out the terms of a contract that a CRM firm has recieved? Is this public information?
Now my question is, was I getting the shaft :shock: and if so, should I pursue the lost compensation during the duration I was working on the project? Also is there anyway to find out the terms of a contract that a CRM firm has recieved? Is this public information?
Post ID#3090 - replied 8/20/2007 7:15 PM
fresno
:lol:
Post ID#3091 - replied 8/20/2007 8:02 PM
scottyj432
It all depends on who the federal/state contract was awarded to. There are loop holes in how the fed rate applies to projects involving federal monies. If the company awarded the fed/state project hires a crew then the rates apply. However, if the work is subcontracted out to a third party and then that third party hires the crew then the rates do no apply. It doesn't seem fair but it is legal under the federal contracts. So in the situation you, Classarch, cited it would all depend on who had the primary contract. If your employer was awarded the contract directly from the feds then in theory they are required by the terms of the contract to pay the fed rate for the area in which the project is located. However, if some other firm was awarded the contract and subcontracted it to your employer then the fed rates would not apply unless it was specifically stated in the fed contract and that is rare.
Post ID#3097 - replied 8/21/2007 2:23 AM
Classarch
Fresno :lol: So yes for getting shafted :shock:
I am not exactly worried about burning bridges with that specific company. They underpaid me for many months even though there was supposed to be a regular review. I never recieved a pay hike and never had a review. I also found out someone who had almost no experience recieved higher pay even though I had asked for the same when I started. This person also started over months after myself. So no love loss there.
The problem with our field is that way too many techs just grin and bear it. If I was owed more than $8 an hr for more than 6 months then I want my FAIR compensation. This was more than just myself but another 3 techs. If we were supposed to get paid this rate then that means the company BROKE the law and needs to be confronted, not by myself but through the proper government channels.
I am not a vindictive type at all but I will not put up with theft of my money. This is the reason I post this topic, so I can find out wether or not this is the case. If not then yes I will move on, if so then I will get in contact with the proper authorities.
Now for scottyj432.
Yes the company did recieve the fed/state contract and did hire the crew.
I would really like to know about the availability of the contracts. I understand there is a specific government organization that monitors government contracts but can't remember the name at the moment.
I also understand that if you work for a company and are not on a fed/state contract then you will get paid the regular rate, but once you are placed to work on the fed/state project then for those hours you are supposed to get paid the fed/state rate.
Anyways thanks for you help and I hope I will be able to learn more. I feel this will be good for all techs and better for our field to get all these answers to questions that most of us never even thought or knew about.
I am not exactly worried about burning bridges with that specific company. They underpaid me for many months even though there was supposed to be a regular review. I never recieved a pay hike and never had a review. I also found out someone who had almost no experience recieved higher pay even though I had asked for the same when I started. This person also started over months after myself. So no love loss there.
The problem with our field is that way too many techs just grin and bear it. If I was owed more than $8 an hr for more than 6 months then I want my FAIR compensation. This was more than just myself but another 3 techs. If we were supposed to get paid this rate then that means the company BROKE the law and needs to be confronted, not by myself but through the proper government channels.
I am not a vindictive type at all but I will not put up with theft of my money. This is the reason I post this topic, so I can find out wether or not this is the case. If not then yes I will move on, if so then I will get in contact with the proper authorities.
Now for scottyj432.
Yes the company did recieve the fed/state contract and did hire the crew.
I would really like to know about the availability of the contracts. I understand there is a specific government organization that monitors government contracts but can't remember the name at the moment.
I also understand that if you work for a company and are not on a fed/state contract then you will get paid the regular rate, but once you are placed to work on the fed/state project then for those hours you are supposed to get paid the fed/state rate.
Anyways thanks for you help and I hope I will be able to learn more. I feel this will be good for all techs and better for our field to get all these answers to questions that most of us never even thought or knew about.
Post ID#3107 - replied 8/21/2007 11:29 AM
Dmack89
Another issue to look into is that the fed rate varies from area to area based on cost of living - they have tables to provide the exact details, but I can not recall where to find them right now - perhaps someone else has that info?
Post ID#3110 - replied 8/21/2007 12:49 PM
scottyj432
Here is the web site with the info:
http://www.opm.gov/oca/07tables/indexGS.asp
http://www.opm.gov/oca/07tables/indexGS.asp
Post ID#3118 - replied 8/21/2007 6:42 PM
BAJR
same project... three companies .... different wages....
had that recently on BAJR.... and I had a word with the overal consultant... who er.... shall we say... had a word.... as each contractor was actually charging the same.. and were supposed to pay everyone the same to ensure no job jumping....
it is tricky to keep an eye on this... but I would go for a kick in the goolies for the employer..!
had that recently on BAJR.... and I had a word with the overal consultant... who er.... shall we say... had a word.... as each contractor was actually charging the same.. and were supposed to pay everyone the same to ensure no job jumping....
it is tricky to keep an eye on this... but I would go for a kick in the goolies for the employer..!
Post ID#3133 - replied 8/22/2007 10:18 AM
Mick
Hey James,
Why do you think I left that "specific company" you so eloquently speak of? It wasnt because of you know who who couldnt read topo maps or figure out a compass. I was HER field supervisor the year before that with another outfit in NW Florida. , and we got EXACTLY the same pay on that gig. Pay isnt equitable anywhere, no matter the project or SOW or MOA. In my case, with an MA, they knew what they had, but paid field tech wages nontheless. I wont ever again take a job or project just for the sake of having an addendum to my resume.
Why do you think I left that "specific company" you so eloquently speak of? It wasnt because of you know who who couldnt read topo maps or figure out a compass. I was HER field supervisor the year before that with another outfit in NW Florida. , and we got EXACTLY the same pay on that gig. Pay isnt equitable anywhere, no matter the project or SOW or MOA. In my case, with an MA, they knew what they had, but paid field tech wages nontheless. I wont ever again take a job or project just for the sake of having an addendum to my resume.
Post ID#3134 - replied 8/22/2007 11:30 AM
Dmack89
Scotty -
Thats a great site for the actual Government employee Grade wages. However, the last time I was involved (man years ago) there were actually a different set of prevailing wages for various types of contracted positions. I am not sure if they still exist.
DM
Thats a great site for the actual Government employee Grade wages. However, the last time I was involved (man years ago) there were actually a different set of prevailing wages for various types of contracted positions. I am not sure if they still exist.
DM
Post ID#3162 - replied 8/23/2007 8:58 PM
fresno
Just read a (very) recent job post that basically said..."expertise" in the archaeology of (region) = $12 per hour.
Ouch! No wonder Classarch is so pissed off. :evil:
Ouch! No wonder Classarch is so pissed off. :evil:
Post ID#3163 - replied 8/23/2007 10:02 PM
FireArch
Moderator
In contrast to Fresno's observation I illustrate this tidbit: B.A. level folks in Federal employ make much more, and dont have to keep chasing down the next lead for a job in order to pay the bills (though some do like that challenge). So here's your basic B.A. level government position:
ARCHEOLOGIST
SALARY RANGE: 35,752.00 - 46,478.00 USD per year
SERIES & GRADE: GS-0193-07 POSITION INFORMATION: Full Time Career/Career Conditional
PROMOTION POTENTIAL: 11 DUTY LOCATIONS: 1 vacancy - Miles City, MT
Get that? That's roughly $17 to $22 per hour, not including all the bene's.
Ya, people should be pissed with the private sector...
ARCHEOLOGIST
SALARY RANGE: 35,752.00 - 46,478.00 USD per year
SERIES & GRADE: GS-0193-07 POSITION INFORMATION: Full Time Career/Career Conditional
PROMOTION POTENTIAL: 11 DUTY LOCATIONS: 1 vacancy - Miles City, MT
Get that? That's roughly $17 to $22 per hour, not including all the bene's.
Ya, people should be pissed with the private sector...
Post ID#3164 - replied 8/24/2007 4:12 AM
Classarch
It's not really that i am pissed off, I am just irritated that more people don't speak up about the issue. I hear people whine all the time about it in the field but never have the cajones to speak up about it. personally at certain jobs I spent more than 3 months at i have asked for more money. People think that will upset the PI or the Field Director. But that's not the case. Most everyone in CRM has worked the grunt jobs and understand.
Furthermore I am all for competition between CRM firms, but everyone must keep in mind that we are all in the same boat and that federally funded projects CANNOT be done without archaeology, so why not take advantage of it like any other profession would?
Thanks for all the info, this has definitely been an eye opener and something that really needed to be discussed.
Furthermore I am all for competition between CRM firms, but everyone must keep in mind that we are all in the same boat and that federally funded projects CANNOT be done without archaeology, so why not take advantage of it like any other profession would?
Thanks for all the info, this has definitely been an eye opener and something that really needed to be discussed.
Post ID#3356 - replied 9/5/2007 1:13 PM
Jaqk_Quartermaine
David Connolly is spot-on. We don't make enough.
Everyone is right about that; we don't make enough.
This is a very touchy topic, and the real problem with it is that all those responsible for the current state of affairs went through it themselves.
Rather interesting conundrum, isn't it?
Thurs., morning coffee:
I had a notion this morning that one of the reasons those of us who are permanent field people through choice have it so rough is that we don't have some sort of scale that determines wages by experience. The table scraps thrown to us by companies purporting to "pay by experience" are not at all reflective of the truly seasoned, nor do they help much. The bottom line is that those of us who have twenty + years in this profession aren't paid what we are worth by any means.
When 40-somethings who have 20+ years experience are paid roughly the same as those who still dry their ears every ten minutes, there's a problem.
We just got hired on to do a Phase I, and our rate of pay is the same as the kids on the rest of the crew. Somehow there ought to be some way to establish some guidelines that are acceptable to all the CRM cos. accountants that compensates seasoned vets for their experience. Since there aren't any permanent crew jobs for field people, why not pay them what they're worth in getting a project done on time and under/on budget?
The excuse that it isn't cost-effective is sad. We have bills, too. We try to have lives, in many ways quite productive and happy ones. One would think we should be able to make a living wage that at least offsets the instability of our job environment.
Everyone is right about that; we don't make enough.
This is a very touchy topic, and the real problem with it is that all those responsible for the current state of affairs went through it themselves.
Rather interesting conundrum, isn't it?
Thurs., morning coffee:
I had a notion this morning that one of the reasons those of us who are permanent field people through choice have it so rough is that we don't have some sort of scale that determines wages by experience. The table scraps thrown to us by companies purporting to "pay by experience" are not at all reflective of the truly seasoned, nor do they help much. The bottom line is that those of us who have twenty + years in this profession aren't paid what we are worth by any means.
When 40-somethings who have 20+ years experience are paid roughly the same as those who still dry their ears every ten minutes, there's a problem.
We just got hired on to do a Phase I, and our rate of pay is the same as the kids on the rest of the crew. Somehow there ought to be some way to establish some guidelines that are acceptable to all the CRM cos. accountants that compensates seasoned vets for their experience. Since there aren't any permanent crew jobs for field people, why not pay them what they're worth in getting a project done on time and under/on budget?
The excuse that it isn't cost-effective is sad. We have bills, too. We try to have lives, in many ways quite productive and happy ones. One would think we should be able to make a living wage that at least offsets the instability of our job environment.
Post ID#3528 - replied 9/15/2007 12:07 PM
grabast
KidCharlemagne
Thank you for digging up this important artifact. Although some folks accuse me of being a mid-Holocene artifact, I am a relative neophyte to archaeology. I entered this field as a Silicon Valley refugee looking for a different career -- one where the dirt washes away at the end of the day. However, if I were a young student looking forward to a promising career where I become wealthy while making a better world -- I'd become an attorney -- not an archaeologist. I agree with the general assessment about the dismal compensation for archaeologist. It is unusual for anyone to become wealthy simply earning wage, especially if the wage is suppressed well below that paid for comparable skills.
I agree with the argument that you are paid what the job is worth and not always according to the skill you bring to the job. It's very unlikely that a surgeon, digging test pits will be paid anymore than to other field techs. I also agree with many of the opinions about why compensation is terribly depressed for archaeologist, but generally, I think it comes down to a few primary issues:
Nothing will improve within this industry until these issues are changed. The first issue is the most difficult and critical. After all, it's been 100 years since the beginning of the regulatory evolution that created CRM, and no one has developed a convincing argument that makes hiring archaeological consultants a desirous return on investment. Again the question, without mandated regulatory compliance -- Why would anyone hire an archaeologist?
To date, the industry has generally dealt with the perception issue by advancing the "professional" façade. However, this doesn't flow well through the financial food chain. Flashing a well-credentialed resume, to a bureaucrat or corporate executive, passes the regulatory compliance filter, but it means nothing to the general-public, who in the end, are the people who pay the bill.
To improve compensation, this industry must make some serious changes. Regrettably, whether its individuals or an industry, change is a very difficult thing to do, and it usually require a serious catalyst to begin the process. People don't change unless they are forced to. Put bluntly, this industry needs some serious ass kicking. There needs to greater professional accountability from CRMs. This usually translates into state licensing, such as required by medical doctors, radio technicians, accountants ... ect. Since we can't sell the benefits of archaeology to employers (developers or agencies), we need a watch dog with big teeth so we can sell benefits of avoiding litigation. The industry needs a few hungry kick-ass attorneys who love creative litigation ... a little fear can a long ways toward upsetting the status quo and affecting change.
While in some industries, the company boss is raking in the big bucks and tossing bones to employees, I don't see that in the CRM business. Generally, compensation is depressed in this business because the CRM business is currently unable to bid the job with higher compensation factored in. The only way employees will get better compensation is if their boss (the CRM company) gets better compensation. And the only way the CRM company gets better pay, is if their boss, developer or agency, gives them more money. ... and that requires some serious change.
... just my long-toothed opinion.
Thank you for digging up this important artifact. Although some folks accuse me of being a mid-Holocene artifact, I am a relative neophyte to archaeology. I entered this field as a Silicon Valley refugee looking for a different career -- one where the dirt washes away at the end of the day. However, if I were a young student looking forward to a promising career where I become wealthy while making a better world -- I'd become an attorney -- not an archaeologist. I agree with the general assessment about the dismal compensation for archaeologist. It is unusual for anyone to become wealthy simply earning wage, especially if the wage is suppressed well below that paid for comparable skills.
I agree with the argument that you are paid what the job is worth and not always according to the skill you bring to the job. It's very unlikely that a surgeon, digging test pits will be paid anymore than to other field techs. I also agree with many of the opinions about why compensation is terribly depressed for archaeologist, but generally, I think it comes down to a few primary issues:
- Perception of value - The industry is operated by academicians who fail to prove their industry's worth to society. That is, you hire a medical doctor, an engineer, a gardener or a contractor because these people give you something you want or need in return for your investment. Why would you hire an archaeologist? Beyond academia, the industry exists only because of regulatory mandate. This lack of return on investment value, perceived and real, places CRM at tremendous disadvantage when contracting for work. The only reason a developer, or an agency, hires an archaeological consultant is to minimally achieve regulatory compliance.
Regulatory Compliance -- or lack thereof. Generally, this industry has a gloomy compliance record, in part, because regulatory compliance ripples down to state, county and municipal code through poorly monitored federal spending. That is, the teeth within archaeological compliance, beyond the federal level, exists through federal money -- either through direct spending, or through revenue sharing. However, the enforcement mechanisms become nearly extinct as compliance reaches county or municipal level. This results in varying degrees of compliance between areas, which in this industry, translates into work availability for archaeologist.
Lack of an industry voice -- Ask anybody on the street about industrial pollution, global warming, cultural resources or archaeology ... what do you think you will hear? Everybody will have an opinion about the first two items, they never heard of "cultural resources," and they'll say something about Egypt, Mexico or dinosaurs for the topic of archaeology. This is because our trade representatives exist only as local or state societies that remain focused on the science and art of archaeology. There is no business trade group representing archaeologist; therefore, we have no effective voice or venue to the populace or legislature.
Availability of labor -- Most of the entry- to mid-level work is done by students, recent graduates or volunteers. This creates a labor-force glut. Students often work for low wage or even volunteer under the perception that it enhances their future resume. Recent graduates, competing against other recent graduates feel pressured to take any job just to get started in the industry. Volunteers are widely available simply because there is a certain attraction to working in this discovery industry. Additionally, the trend of hiring immigrant labor is bleeding into CRM further depressing wage by creating an unfair labor market. Unfair, in the since that as archaeologist, we expected our basic credentials (field school, BA, or MA) to give us some degree of hiring preference.
Nothing will improve within this industry until these issues are changed. The first issue is the most difficult and critical. After all, it's been 100 years since the beginning of the regulatory evolution that created CRM, and no one has developed a convincing argument that makes hiring archaeological consultants a desirous return on investment. Again the question, without mandated regulatory compliance -- Why would anyone hire an archaeologist?
To date, the industry has generally dealt with the perception issue by advancing the "professional" façade. However, this doesn't flow well through the financial food chain. Flashing a well-credentialed resume, to a bureaucrat or corporate executive, passes the regulatory compliance filter, but it means nothing to the general-public, who in the end, are the people who pay the bill.
To improve compensation, this industry must make some serious changes. Regrettably, whether its individuals or an industry, change is a very difficult thing to do, and it usually require a serious catalyst to begin the process. People don't change unless they are forced to. Put bluntly, this industry needs some serious ass kicking. There needs to greater professional accountability from CRMs. This usually translates into state licensing, such as required by medical doctors, radio technicians, accountants ... ect. Since we can't sell the benefits of archaeology to employers (developers or agencies), we need a watch dog with big teeth so we can sell benefits of avoiding litigation. The industry needs a few hungry kick-ass attorneys who love creative litigation ... a little fear can a long ways toward upsetting the status quo and affecting change.
While in some industries, the company boss is raking in the big bucks and tossing bones to employees, I don't see that in the CRM business. Generally, compensation is depressed in this business because the CRM business is currently unable to bid the job with higher compensation factored in. The only way employees will get better compensation is if their boss (the CRM company) gets better compensation. And the only way the CRM company gets better pay, is if their boss, developer or agency, gives them more money. ... and that requires some serious change.
... just my long-toothed opinion.
Post ID#3579 - replied 9/18/2007 4:34 PM
grabast
Another issue associated with the depressed wage is that currently the industry appears to pay according to federal employee schedules. This, I believe, is an erroneous foundation because this pay is normally associated with full time federal employees who also receive significant benefits with their job. These schedules do not accurately (or even reasonably) represent people working the expensive Shovel Bum circuit. Intermittent work with unemployment and travel between jobs is extremely expensive. A fulltime federal GS3/4 job paying $11.00 to $12.50 per hour includes benefits worth, on the open market, another $5.50 per hour. This means that a comparable civilian employee, without benefits, paid at comparable level should be getting $16.50 to $18.00 per hour. Additionally, the job requirements are not transparent between the federal and civilian markets. For example, most GS3/4 jobs require only marginal education, such as high school with a little college or trade school.
Post ID#3594 - replied 9/19/2007 6:32 AM
Jennifer Palmer
Webmaster
I don't know if the pay rate of many tech positions at CRM firms is actually based on federal rates, unless someone has a contract with the feds where prevailing wage kicks in. In my neck of the woods, unfortunately even the GS wages for seasonal federal archaeologists trumps the advertised pay for 90% of the CRM positions that are advertised. As an example, my last seasonal, federal position was a GS-07 archaeologist, and I was earning $15.55/hr. The last time I earned anything near that wage in the private sector was on a project based in NYC... and in that case, I had negotiated the highest wage I could get away with, which actually ending up falling into that company's bracket for crew chiefing pay. If most of the CRM projects here paid close to comparable GS wages, I think we'd all have a little bit less to complain about... :wink:
Post ID#3601 - replied 9/19/2007 12:09 PM
FireArch
Moderator
...what Jennifer said. Absolutely.
Post ID#3604 - replied 9/19/2007 1:27 PM
grabast
Greetings Jennifer and FireArch. I honestly don’t know what they use as their basis for estimating wage. I've only observed what proximally appears a correlation between wage offers and lowers GS schedules. I know that most per diem rates are erroneously based on federal schedules. I also know that most pay offers for archaeologist are ludicrous. If somebody wants me to volunteer, they should say so, but they shouldn’t attempt to insult me by telling me it is a paying gig when I could get better offers standing in front of Home Depot. (Luckily, I don’t need to take that crap.)
I don't know about pay ranges in your area Jennifer, but out here in the Silicon Valley area (central California) you can make $16/ hr as an entry landscaper laborer and crew leaders make around $25/ hr. The work is similar to arch tech, except easier, requires no education, and pays better.
I don't know about pay ranges in your area Jennifer, but out here in the Silicon Valley area (central California) you can make $16/ hr as an entry landscaper laborer and crew leaders make around $25/ hr. The work is similar to arch tech, except easier, requires no education, and pays better.
Post ID#3612 - replied 9/19/2007 9:38 PM
scottyj432
Well, I agree with Jennifer. Pay rates in the private realm do not seem to have anything to do with the GS rates in most regions of the country. However, in some parts of the country, the private rates are sometimes higher than the GS rates.
That being said, each federal agency determines on a federal project what a field tech will be paid and that rate can vary from agency to agency, region to region. I think it was in this thread earlier on that someone mentioned there used to be a federal website that listed the job definition of a field tech and the wage rates. I remember seeing this site a long time ago but I have searched all over and can no longer find it.
So....at work I went back and pulled out all the federal contracts my employer has had over the past year and all of them had different rates for field techs. However, all of the federal contracts had a provision in them that stated something to the effect that the federal agency "letting" the contract was the "administrator" of the contract and as "administrator" they would determine the pay rate for field techs on the projects.
One federal contract we did several months ago (federal agency to be unnamed) stated that as administrator of the contract, they had determined that field techs were "comparable" to the federal position of "entry level computer data entry techs". I kid you not. Well, the rate for that, even with the federal rate of benefit allowance was less than what my employer pays field techs on any private projects. We bid the project using our rate and got it and paid our higher rate rather than the lower federal rate.
That being said, each federal agency determines on a federal project what a field tech will be paid and that rate can vary from agency to agency, region to region. I think it was in this thread earlier on that someone mentioned there used to be a federal website that listed the job definition of a field tech and the wage rates. I remember seeing this site a long time ago but I have searched all over and can no longer find it.
So....at work I went back and pulled out all the federal contracts my employer has had over the past year and all of them had different rates for field techs. However, all of the federal contracts had a provision in them that stated something to the effect that the federal agency "letting" the contract was the "administrator" of the contract and as "administrator" they would determine the pay rate for field techs on the projects.
One federal contract we did several months ago (federal agency to be unnamed) stated that as administrator of the contract, they had determined that field techs were "comparable" to the federal position of "entry level computer data entry techs". I kid you not. Well, the rate for that, even with the federal rate of benefit allowance was less than what my employer pays field techs on any private projects. We bid the project using our rate and got it and paid our higher rate rather than the lower federal rate.